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From: j...@Apple.COM (John Kullmann)
Newsgroups: gnu.gcc
Subject: GNU's not GNU...
Message-ID: <27674@apple.Apple.COM>
Date: 22 Mar 89 01:55:39 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA
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I couldn't figure out where to post this so pardon me for posting it here.
FLAME ON.
I think it is bull**** that just because Stallman has a bug up his a** about
Apple's corporate policies and actions that the GNU project
will have nothing to do with A/UX.
I was going to port over gdb, but f*** it if the GNU-nixs won't
put my changes back into the offical GNU source. We already have most of GNU
ported but met with closed minds and petty bull**** when we tried to get our
changes rolled back into the offical sources. We are just hard working
software jocks like the rest of you and want the stuff we do to be used
and appreciated like you do. It's bull**** to ignore and piss off us poor
software peons just because you do not like Apple's corporate policy. It
is self-defeating towards the goals that GNU is pursuing, and if you think
that ignoring/rejecting us is somehow going to cause Apple to change its
corporate policies you are living in a fantasyland.
So I guess GNU is freeware/copyleft/etc/etc as long as we all do what Stallman
or the GNU-nixs want. Great attitude.
FLAME OFF.
Is there anyone else out there that has met with a brick wall when trying to
get changes for a particular architecture rolled back into some piece of
GNU? Is there more to GNU's hatred of Apple than some misguided philisophical
beliefs? Am I wrong to feel this way?
---The above commentary is the opinion of John Kullmann. It was made on my own
time without the knowledge or sanction of Apple Computer.
-------------------- -------------------
John Kullmann "All opinions and comments are mine alone"
A/UX Technical Mgr ..!apple!jk j...@apple.com
Voice: 408-973-2939
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litp!rms
From: mcvax!litp!...@UUNET.UU.NET (Richard STALLMAN)
Newsgroups: gnu.gcc
Subject: Apple bites Man.
Message-ID: <8903232349.AA08894@litp.univ-p6-7.fr>
Date: 23 Mar 89 23:49:37 GMT
Sender: dae...@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu
Reply-To: r...@wheaties.ai.mit.edu
Distribution: gnu
Organization: GNUs Not Usenet
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We are just hard working software jocks...
I'd sympathize more if you had chosen a better cause to work hard for.
Right now you are putting most of your hard work into getting Apple
more money to pay laywers to sue me some day. It might seem to you that
this aspect of your job is a minor side-effect, but it is very important
from my point of view.
I'm sure you can find a company to work for that is not likely to be a
look-and-feel plaintiff.
if you think
that ignoring/rejecting us is somehow going to cause Apple to change its
corporate policies you are living in a fantasyland.
If it gets you to quit your job and post a letter at your office
saying why (with a copy to Sculley), it might start to have such an
effect. If you move to a company that uses some other brand of machines
then the problem you are now complaining about will cease to trouble you.
So I guess GNU is freeware/copyleft/etc/etc as long as we all do what
Stallman or the GNU-nixs want. Great attitude.
Free software means that each person or company can decide what
changes to install and what version to distribute. Should I be the
only one in the world who does not have this freedom?
Is there more to GNU's hatred of Apple than some misguided philisophical
beliefs?
If not for my philosophical beliefs, there would not be a GCC for you
to port; they are the reason I work on GNU.
GNU is becoming very successful, but Apple, Lotus, etc. might still
stop us by making free software illegal. It shouldn't come as a
surprise that I use every legitimate means I can find to oppose them
and to call public attention to the danger they present. I urge
everyone to boycott Apple: don't buy their machines, and certainly
don't develop software for them. If I want to persuade, I had better
start by presenting a good example.
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WHEATIES.AI.MIT.EDU!rms
From: r...@WHEATIES.AI.MIT.EDU (Richard Stallman)
Newsgroups: gnu.gcc
Subject: What is the poison in the Apple?
Message-ID: <8903281812.AA00242@sugar-bombs.ai.mit.edu>
Date: 28 Mar 89 18:12:02 GMT
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Organization: GNUs Not Usenet
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Several people have asked me what Apple is doing that endangers the
GNU project and free software in general. I think there may be enough
people who don't know the answer that it is worth telling all of you.
Software companies typically hoard software they write. I disapprove
of this, but once I write a GNU replacement, they don't hurt me (or
GNU users) any more.
Apple, Lotus and a few others have gone beyond hoarding software; they
are suing companies for independent development of compatible
replacement programs--the same sort of thing that I am doing in GNU.
If they win these suits, they will be able to crush free replacements
along with proprietary replacements. And if this becomes accepted
practice, most other companies will doubtless join in, even though
they are not now among those trying to establish the new monopolies.
Then free software would be limited to things that software did before
1980, for around 70 more years: till long after I am dead. I could
continue writing free software for the rest of the world, but
Americans would not get the benefit of it.
This is why I consider it so important to fight Apple in whatever way
I can--such as, by not supporting A/UX. Therefore, instead of helping
A/UX users by working on supporting A/UX, I choose to help some other
users by working on something else. Supporting a system takes more
work than you might think.
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From: r...@WHEATIES.AI.MIT.EDU (Richard Stallman)
Newsgroups: gnu.gcc
Subject: GNU's not GNU...
Message-ID: <8903282016.AA00479@sugar-bombs.ai.mit.edu>
Date: 28 Mar 89 20:16:07 GMT
References: <39924@oliveb.olivetti.com>
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Organization: GNUs Not Usenet
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Would you please not waste people's time on info-gcc discussing the
technical merits or lack thereof of various proprietary operating systems?
Such discussions are not germane even to the question of how FSF deals
with Apple, let alone to the subject of GCC. Please move them elsewhere.
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MITVMA.MIT.EDU!EPRF%SNYCENVM.BITNET
From: EPRF%SNYCENVM.BIT...@MITVMA.MIT.EDU (Peter Flass)
Newsgroups: gnu.gcc
Subject: Re: GNU's not GNU...
Message-ID: <8903301740.AA18134@prep.ai.mit.edu>
Date: 30 Mar 89 17:58:07 GMT
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Organization: GNUs Not Usenet
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I hate to burn bandwidth on a religious crusade, but isn't it interesting
that the two companies most involved in "look and feel" litigation, Apple
and Lotus, didn't create the intellectual property they are so aggressively
defending (anyone remember the Alto or Visicalc).
If lawsuits like this had been in vogue a few years ago Apple's big product
would still be the Apple-II.
- Pete
Disclaimer: These opinions are my own and not those of my employer
(or anyone else, to my knowledge)
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| |
| Peter Flass BITnet: EPRF@SNYCENVM (preferred) |
| Director of Computing Services INTERnet: ESCFL...@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU |
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unmvax!gatech!bbn!apple!jk
From: j...@Apple.COM (John Kullmann)
Newsgroups: gnu.gcc
Subject: Re: GNU's not GNU...
Message-ID: <28354@apple.Apple.COM>
Date: 4 Apr 89 07:21:28 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA
Lines: 35
EPRF%SNYCENVM.BIT...@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
In article <8903301740.AA18...@prep.ai.mit.edu> you write:
>I hate to burn bandwidth on a religious crusade, but isn't it interesting
>that the two companies most involved in "look and feel" litigation, Apple
>and Lotus, didn't create the intellectual property they are so aggressively
>defending (anyone remember the Alto or Visicalc).
>
>If lawsuits like this had been in vogue a few years ago Apple's big product
>would still be the Apple-II.
You just don't get it. I am not a lawyer, thank god, and this is my personal
opinion not Apple's, but here goes. This crap about how Apple stole all this
from Xerox etc. is not relevant. The issue is the expression of the idea,
not the idea. For example, an analogy would be the Civil War. Gone with the
Wind is copyrightable. You cannot recreate that expression of the Civil War
without expecting to get sued. You are free to create and market/give away
your own expression of the Civil War. If it looks like GWTW, smells like
GWTW, or quacks like GWTW, the copyright holder for GWTW will probably
sue you.
I would like to talk to the FSF about the possiblity of donating
some Apple H/W S/W to the FSF. If there is interest I will try to arrange
for a donation. I am willing to do this in spite of the
fact that they are actively waging an anti-Apple hate campaign
through those lame buttons, hate text in their releases etc. If they do
not accept, or accept and sell the donation and use the $$ or squash
the stuff under a steamroller, that should pretty well establish that
GNU is only GNU as long as rms gets his way (or something like that...).
-------------------- -------------------------------------
John Kullmann "The above fact and/or fiction is the personal
..!apple!jk opinion of John Kullmann and not Apple Computer."
j...@apple.com Copyright 1989 by John Kullmann
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WHEATIES.AI.MIT.EDU!rms
From: r...@WHEATIES.AI.MIT.EDU (Richard Stallman)
Newsgroups: gnu.gcc
Subject: GNU's not GNU...
Message-ID: <8904042254.AA00430@sugar-bombs.ai.mit.edu>
Date: 4 Apr 89 22:54:16 GMT
References: <28354@apple.Apple.COM>
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Organization: GNUs Not Usenet
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Until two years ago, writing a program whose user interface imitated
an existing program was standard practice and was always considered
lawful. User interfaces were considered utilitarian ideas, not
artistic expressions like "Gone with the Wind". This situation was
satisfactory, but Apple, Lotus, etc. are trying to change it: to
establish a new kind monopoly.
No matter how this monopoly is formulated (is it an "idea" or an
"expression"), it still takes away programmers' traditional freedom.
It is still harmful for the users (no more compatibility) and it is
still a disaster for free software.
I'd happily accept donations from Apple or its employees, despite all
the harm they are otherwise doing to the GNU project, in the form of
money, or software that is generally useful. Or bug reports. In
other words, I'd accept anything which enables me to help GNU users in
general.
However, if I accepted a donation of Macintoshes, it would prove I was
simple minded. A few machines more or less don't make much difference
to how successful GNU will ultimately be. Defeating "look and feel"
is essential to keep free software legal.
Does anyone have suggestions for new ways to carry on the fight?
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rutgers!apple!sticks!dwb
From: d...@sticks.apple.com (David W. Berry)
Newsgroups: gnu.gcc
Subject: Re: GNU's not GNU...
Message-ID: <1278@internal.Apple.COM>
Date: 11 Apr 89 00:38:42 GMT
References: <28354@apple.Apple.COM> <8904042254.AA00430@sugar-bombs.ai.mit.edu>
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Distribution: gnu
Organization: Apple Computer
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In article <8904042254.AA00...@sugar-bombs.ai.mit.edu> r...@WHEATIES.AI.MIT.EDU
(Richard Stallman) writes:
>I'd happily accept donations from Apple or its employees, despite all
>the harm they are otherwise doing to the GNU project, in the form of
>money, or software that is generally useful. Or bug reports. In
>other words, I'd accept anything which enables me to help GNU users in
>general.
Well, that's certainly news. I have on several occasions
offered to FSF the necessary changes to make gcc work under A/UX.
I offered changes for 1.22, 1.24 and 1.25. I will once again make
the offer. If you would like the necessary changes to make A/UX
1.34 compile and run under A/UX please let me know and I'll be
happy to forward the changes to you. If not, I'd request you drop
the pretense of "happily accept donations from Apple or its employees."
Opinions: MINE, ALL MINE! (greedy evil chuckle)
David W. Berry (A/UX Toolbox Engineer)
d...@apple.com 973-5...@408.MaBell AppleLink: berry1
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WHEATIES.AI.MIT.EDU!rms
From: r...@WHEATIES.AI.MIT.EDU (Richard Stallman)
Newsgroups: gnu.gcc
Subject: GNU's not GNU...
Message-ID: <8904110308.AA01990@sugar-bombs.ai.mit.edu>
Date: 11 Apr 89 03:08:42 GMT
References: <1278@internal.Apple.COM>
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Organization: GNUs Not Usenet
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>money, or software that is generally useful. Or bug reports. In
>other words, I'd accept anything which enables me to help GNU users in
>general.
Well, that's certainly news. I have on several occasions
offered to FSF the necessary changes to make gcc work under A/UX.
This would not help GNU users in general.
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From: s...@polya.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan S. Shapiro)
Newsgroups: gnu.gcc
Subject: Re: GNU's not GNU...
Summary: create gnu.politics
Message-ID: <8481@polya.Stanford.EDU>
Date: 16 Apr 89 00:32:14 GMT
References: <819@aber-cs.UUCP>
Sender: Jonathan S. Shapiro <s...@polya.Stanford.EDU>
Reply-To: s...@polya.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan S. Shapiro)
Distribution: eunet,world
Organization: Stanford University
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I propose that we create gnu.politics, because gnu.gcc and gnu.config
aren't the right place for this sort of discussion, but the
discussions are important and the gnu contingent needs to be having
them.
Observation: the discussion over this issue has been hotter than the
discussion over gnu.gcc!
Jon
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From: r...@MCC.COM (Ron Guilmette)
Newsgroups: gnu.gcc
Subject: Re: GNU's not GNU...
Message-ID: <8904161946.AA03444@riunite.aca.mcc.com>
Date: 16 Apr 89 19:46:35 GMT
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I also would like to see a new newsgroup/mailing-list called gnu.politics
or gnu.philosophy or some such thing.
I can see how such a group would come in handy. For instance, right now
I'd like to inform all the GNU'ers out there that this month's IEEE Micro
magazine contains an interesting MicroLaw column that talks about some
recent cases involving the definition of "derivative works". Where should
I post such a public service announcement? Obviously, the info-gcc mailing-list/
newsgroup is *not* really the correct place, but where else?
// Ron Guilmette - MCC - Experimental Systems Kit Project
// 3500 West Balcones Center Drive, Austin, TX 78759 - (512)338-3740
// ARPA: r...@mcc.com
// UUCP: {rutgers,uunet,gatech,ames,pyramid}!cs.utexas.edu!pp!rfg
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From: to...@WHEATIES.AI.MIT.EDU
Newsgroups: gnu.gcc
Subject: STOP THIS! GNU's not GNU...
Message-ID: <8904210157.AA16626@wheat-chex.ai.mit.edu>
Date: 21 Apr 89 01:57:50 GMT
References: <8904161946.AA03444@riunite.aca.mcc.com>
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From: r...@mcc.com (Ron Guilmette)
I also would like to see a new newsgroup/mailing-list called
gnu.politics or gnu.philosophy or some such thing.
Let's stop this secondary discussion of new non-technical newsgroups. The
gnu mailing-lists/newsgroups are meant for technical discussions about GNU.
Review etc/MAILINGLISTS in the GNU Emacs distribution for the full scoop.
Let's also stop the discussion on the primary issue. Rarely, an important
non-technical issue comes. It should be quickly answered by people who are
qualified to do so. Further comments, discussion, and opinions are not
appropriate. Take it offline to private mail or one of the talk.* USENET
newsgroup. To quote k...@triceratops.cis.ohio-state.edu:
| Date: 9 Aug 88 15:27:14 GMT
| From: k...@triceratops.cis.ohio-state.edu (Karl Kleinpaste)
| Subject: STOP THIS.
| To: info-...@prep.ai.mit.edu
|
| Look, folks, get something straight. The GNU mailing lists have
| traditionally had an extremely high signal-to-noise ratio. The utter crap
| currently taking place in this newsgroup is reducing that ratio to epsilon
| fast.
|
| Unless you have informed, documentable legal opinion, shut up.
|
| Gene Spafford expressed some concerns and got some expert opinion. His
| contact presented some interesting, potentially useful information. RMS
| recognized the value of the questions and answered them.
|
| 99% of the remainder of what's happening here is complete, total GARBAGE.
| When it comes to people starting their articles with, "I'm not a lawyer, but
| I'll throw in my guesses, too," it is manifestly clear that this is
| threatening to become a sewer.
|
| STOP IT. As Padlipsky said, you may have a constitutional right to a
| personal opinion, but you DON'T have a constitutional right to a professional
| opinion.
|
| If you need an expert legal opinion, GO GET ONE. You can find a lawyer, I'm
| sure, unless your hands are actually glued to the F(ollowup) or R(eply) keys
| of your keyboard. If the info you get is of a high character, maybe post a
| summary.
|
| This mailing-list/newsgroup exists to discuss THE COMPILER, GCC, not your
| opinions of RMS, FSF, the GNU Project in general, the state of the legal
| system in the US, or anything else. This is a TECHNICAL FORUM. *Keep* it
| that way.
| ...
flames > to...@wheaties.ai.mit.edu
From: r...@mcc.com (Ron Guilmette)
I can see how such a group would come in handy. For instance, right now
I'd like to inform all the GNU'ers out there that this month's IEEE Micro
magazine contains an interesting MicroLaw column that talks about some
recent cases involving the definition of "derivative works". Where should
I post such a public service announcement? Obviously, the info-gcc
mailing-list/ newsgroup is *not* really the correct place, but where else?
This pointer is appropriate for posting to info-gnu/gnu.announce, It's
useful to many GNUers to better understand this law.
thanx -len