From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx Fri May 12 00:02:04 2000
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Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 08:39:29 -0500
Message-Id: <199905251339.IAA32196@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx>
From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: gnome-announce-list@gnome.org, gnome-list@gnome.org
CC: rms@gnu.org, alan@cymru.net, raph@acm.org
Subject: Writing free documentation/GNOME books
Hello guys,
For some time we have heard Richard Stallman talk about how
important free documentation is for the GNU project. GNOME is a
perfect example of a system that needs documentation, and we are
having a hard time documenting the system: writing tutorials, writing
api definitions, users manuals and other types of documentation.
Free documentation (Open Source documentation) is important for a
number of reasons:
1. If documentation is OpenSourced -we- can maintain the
documentation gradually even if the original author is no
longer interested in writing these books.
2. Users can get online versions of the documentation with the
system.
3. Documentation can be reused. Just like software in other
books, or as part of a system documentation (ie, think
GNU/Linux distributions).
4. People can reuse bits of the documentation in other projects
for the parts that apply. They can reuse this documentation
for a possibly modified/extended version of the code, or to
reflect a branded-version of the code.
5. We can put the books online on the web site. We can create
comprenhensive web sites that have tutorials online that
people can link to from technical information and the other
way around.
I had assumed for a long time that people who wrote books for
publishing companies made piles of money and that this was the reason
we could not get those books open-sourced. Given that the authors of
those books would get a lot of money for it.
I recently talked to two very dear friends of mine who are working
on two books about GNOME programming. With two publishing companies.
One company I will call A and the other I will call B.
Both A and B are offering the authors of the books 1 dollar per
book sold plus some money in advance which varies for books that are
sold to the end user for something in the range of 25-40 dollars.
Companies A and B have estimated selling something between 10k and
20k books. Company A has shown some interested in exploring making
the source open-source, but the last time I talked to them, they were
no longer going to make the GNOME book free.
I have also read this story that my friend Raph Levien pointed me
to: http://photo.net/wtr/dead-trees/story.html
Basically, I am very dissapointed with the book industry at this
point. Authors of books are not treated nicely, they are not payed
enough, they do not get a good deal at all.
The big winner here is the publisher: neither the book-purchaser,
nor the book-writer, nor the community at large benefit. It is pretty
outrageous. Now I understand why the Beatles wanted to create their
own publishing company. They get to keep most of the money from their
work this way.
Jim Gettys has pointed out that his book on X programming that was
all the time free (open sourced) was published and that it was used to
pay for his bills for a long time. And it is still being sold, even
if the source code for the book is available.
So the idea here is that we should create a company that could pay
authors better royalties per book, and get the results of the money to
fund some software projects and documentation projects.
I would personally like the FSF take over this, because they could
invest some initial money for making this happen, but anyone can
participate in this.
I have created a mailing list for those interested in discussing
possible setups for making this happen, to subscribe, type:
echo subscribe | mail free-docs-publishing-request@nuclecu.unam.mx
It occurs to me that we can do a number of things, my first idea is:
1. Get a list of topics that people would like to see.
2. Choose the ones that have the most demand.
3. Ask people for an "advanced" payment on the book. There is
little to loose, say 30 dollars contribution.
4. Use the "advanced" payments to pay "main" authors, and give them an
advance so that they can devote to writing the book.
We want to get this setup bootstrapped as soon as possible of course.
ok, that is one idea. I am sure people with more business experience
can come up with better ideas.
Best wishes,
Miguel.
From dcm@redhat.com
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To: gnome-list@gnome.org, gnome-hackers@gnome.org,
free-docs-publishing@nuclecu.unam.mx
Subject: Re: Writing free documentation/GNOME books
References: <199905251339.IAA32196@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx>
X-URL: <http://www.redhat.com>
From: "David C. Mason" <dcm@redhat.com>
Date: 26 May 1999 11:01:51 -0400
In-Reply-To: Miguel de Icaza's message of "Tue, 25 May 1999 08:39:29 -0500"
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Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx> writes:
I truly hope you don't think the User documentation is lacking as that
would be a real ego deflater for me. The project has grown good feet
and now there are many people working on it from a writing, editing,
and translation standpoint. If there are any problems with it, it is
my lack of getting more GNOME hackers to give it a technical review (I
don't get the feeling too many of the major project contributors have
read it yet).
Now it is time to focus on the GTK, and GNOME developers documentation
and I hope there isn't anyone complaining about it that hasn't
contributed because that would be very counter-productive.
*re-read last paragraph please
The GTK documentation has gotten off to a great start and is being
maintained very well. I personally think it is important to get GTK
done before GNOME, but that is a personal opinion.
The state of devel docs would not be an issue if, first, people looked
over the GNOME docs status page -
http://www.gnome.org/devel/docs/TODO/todo.html. This is a great start
at assigning parts of the documentation (perhaps it needs names of
those who are doing specific parts and some more formatting)
Once you have reviewed the status page, EVERYONE needs to take 10
minutes and write up ONE page of reference. Thats it, there are enough
of us to do this.
I think it is important that these projects have one or two
maintainers at the maximum so that it remains well organized. I am the
sole maintainer of the User docs and would be happy to join in and
share the duties of maintaining the GNOME API project. GTK is being
handled well so we should let it grow and start contributing more.
As to starting a company, I will try to keep my opinions to myself as
much as possible here. I personally don't think it is a good step for
the GNOME project. I think those who try will find themselves paying
similar rates to authors as the large companies do.. thats all I will
say about it at this point. Please don't simply use this paragraph to
start a large discussion... just go write some documentation and then
we can talk about the state of the industry.
Dave
--
David Mason
Red Hat AD Labs
dcm@redhat.com
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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To: "David C. Mason" <dcm@redhat.com>
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free-docs-publishing@nuclecu.unam.mx
Subject: Re: Writing free documentation/GNOME books
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
Date: 26 May 1999 08:18:09 -0500
In-Reply-To: "David C. Mason"'s message of "26 May 1999 11:01:51 -0400"
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> I truly hope you don't think the User documentation is lacking as that
> would be a real ego deflater for me. The project has grown good feet
> and now there are many people working on it from a writing, editing,
> and translation standpoint.
Please read my message again.
I am sad and upset about the publishing industry and how it treats
consumers and authors of books. And I want to get OpenSourced books
to people and get authors a better deal when they publish their
books.
> If there are any problems with it, it is
> my lack of getting more GNOME hackers to give it a technical review (I
> don't get the feeling too many of the major project contributors have
> read it yet).
what is this documentation you are talking about? The one that Dave
at Red Hat wrote? I am missing something here.
Fact is: the GNOME API documentation is not yet finished, it lacks
examples, and some introductory material.
> The GTK documentation has gotten off to a great start and is being
> maintained very well. I personally think it is important to get GTK
> done before GNOME, but that is a personal opinion.
They can be done in parallel.
> I think it is important that these projects have one or two
> maintainers at the maximum so that it remains well organized. I am the
> sole maintainer of the User docs and would be happy to join in and
> share the duties of maintaining the GNOME API project. GTK is being
> handled well so we should let it grow and start contributing more.
I would love to get your help on this task.
> As to starting a company, I will try to keep my opinions to myself as
> much as possible here. I personally don't think it is a good step for
> the GNOME project.
I am not saying the GNOME project should do it. I even suggested the
FSF could be a good starting place. I have received a number of
comments from people that have companies that are trying to do this.
I do not care who publishes them, I just want:
1. Open Sourced documentation.
2. A good pay for the authors.
3. A company that is willing to publish those books.
Best wishes,
Miguel.
--
miguel@gnu.org
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
CC: dcm@redhat.com, gnome-list@gnome.org, free-docs-publishing@nuclecu.unam.mx
In-reply-to: <s81zg43r72.fsf@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx> (message from Miguel
de Icaza on 26 May 1999 08:18:09 -0500)
Subject: Re: Writing free documentation/GNOME books
X-Windows: Garbage at your fingertips.
References: <199905251339.IAA32196@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx> <ybb4skzj2n4.fsf@chelseafc.labs.redhat.com> <s81zg43r72.fsf@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx>
What an idiot I am. I never saw that you were Dave at Red Hat in my
last mail, I just read the thread and replied blindly. ;-)
> I truly hope you don't think the User documentation is lacking as that
> would be a real ego deflater for me. The project has grown good feet
> and now there are many people working on it from a writing, editing,
> and translation standpoint.
So, no, I do not think the documentation is bad.
Here are the facts:
1. Authors get paid a missery by publishers.
2. Still some of them need money.
3. We want those books to be Open Source.
So, we want to make some sort of setup in which we can produce
OpenSource documentation and pay the authors more than they currently
receive.
This does not only span GNOME, it spans every technical book the free
software community needs.
Miguel.
From dcm@redhat.com
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To: free-docs-publishing@nuclecu.unam.mx
Cc: tim@oreilly.com, miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: My thoughts summed up by others
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.990526062017.13139C-100000@netbrain.com> <199905261343.IAA24143@erandi.nuclecu.unam.mx> <374C8060.E87CF317@ihug.co.nz> <374E3147.DEF7F63A@oreilly.com>
X-URL: <http://www.redhat.com>
From: "David C. Mason" <dcm@redhat.com>
Date: 28 May 1999 10:58:22 -0400
In-Reply-To: "Tim O'Reilly"'s message of "Thu, 27 May 1999 23:01:43 -0700"
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As usual, my email skills were lacking. I think Tim has nailed what is
rattling around in my head. If I can just pull some quotes from a
couple of his messages...
>The MacMillan publishing model relies heavily
>on "frontlist" sales to the stores, rather than continuing sales
>over time. They are continually pushing new product out at
>stores, and abandoning most of what they published earlier, in
>quest of greener pastures. Most of those books that they have up
>for free download are actually no longer available in bookstores,
>even though they are "current."
>
>I also wouldn't assume that their profits are healthy. Macmillan
>has historically been quite profitable, but they've fallen on
>hard times lately.
Having been a minor "student" of the publishing industry I have seen
this echoed quite a bit recently. As I said before, the specialty
technical book is not a big seller. Even though it is an ego deflater,
GNOME books, Linux books, and development books are specialties.
>I completely agree with RMS and with Miguel that it's important
>for free software to have good free documentation as well. I
>just don't think that this means that all books about free
>software should also be free.
Again, this is a great statement. Books and software are two
completely different beasts. Open source software works because of
what software is and how we use it. We benefit from being able to
change software to answer a need or fix a problem. It is much more
difficult to change someone's writing. It kills the voice of the
content and no one benefits.
Carrying the model further, if one of the thrusts of this idea is to
benefit the author, the business model of the open source community
would not benefit any author. If a book is truly open source then
anyone could pick it up and publish it. Does that mean the author gets
no royalties from that second publication? If so, that means that the
second publisher has lower overhead so charges less for the book? Then
the original publisher sells less books because they charge more than
the other guy and, in turn, the author makes less cash. <headspin>
Again I have to state that, although this debate is wonderful and well
worth the effort, I would love to see as much talk and effort put into
the documentation we NEED that IS free and part of the GNOME
project (and other projects for that matter). Lets continue this talk
while we all write one or two pages of reference and tutorials.
Maybe even Tim can join in and do some reference docs for us. How
about it?
Dave
--
David Mason
Red Hat AD Labs
dcm@redhat.com
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: tim@oreilly.com
CC: dcm@redhat.com, gnome-list@gnome.org, free-docs-publishing@nuclecu.unam.mx
In-reply-to: <374E2CD3.A7D3F8B7@oreilly.com> (tim@oreilly.com)
Subject: Re: Writing free documentation/GNOME books
X-Windows: The problem for your problem.
References: <199905251339.IAA32196@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx> <ybb4skzj2n4.fsf@chelseafc.labs.redhat.com> <s81zg43r72.fsf@metropolis.nuclecu.unam.mx> <199905261944.OAA26145@erandi.nuclecu.unam.mx> <374E2CD3.A7D3F8B7@oreilly.com>
Tim said:
> That's going to be *tough.* I think that free docs are a good
> thing, but they do generally make less money than proprietary
> ones, just as free software generates less money than proprietary
> software.
So a couple of people have mailed me about this. And their point is
that they are not always driven by money. If they wanted to make
money they could do oracle/sap consulting and be filthy rich.
Many people publish technical books for a number of reasons:
1. They want to help other people understand some bit of
technology they are familiar with.
2. It is good looking on the resume.
3. They make some limited ammount of money.
4. They want to make a technology adopted by other people. They
are convinced it is a good thing to have.
> I completely agree with RMS and with Miguel that it's important
> for free software to have good free documentation as well. I
> just don't think that this means that all books about free
> software should also be free.
Remember where I am coming from: The fact that my friends are doing
proprietary books and they are going to get peanuts. Even in Mexico
they could make more money doing consulting.
I am not talking about making books for free software be open source.
Until authors get well payed, proprietary books is just a small
ammount of money.
When I learned one one of my friends was going to receive less money
for the book than some free-software organization was planning on
spending on authors I was shocked.
Now, that being said. I like your idea that not everything that talks
about some free-software topic has to be free.
You mentioned before that authors at O'Reilly actuallly get better
pays. This is an interesting data point.
Now, you have experience publishing an open-source book, Olaf's
book. Would you be able to provide aproximate figures on how other
people publishing the book caused a monetary loss for your company?
I think there are many other things that can be done by people
publishing OpenSource books. (Specially in the context of selling
"updates" on the book, given that people can contribute to it).
> Think of a book as equivalent to the added level of configuration
> and polishing and packaging that goes into a boxed Linux
> distribution.
Good point, but a bit ambiguous:
So far, both Debian and Red Hat make all of that polishing and
configuration free. Caldera does not ship a fully open source
distribution (I am talking here about their added value installation
program, which is proprietary).
So which one do you mean?
Cheers,
Miguel.
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: [rms@gnu.org: [gnome-list-request@gnome.org: Re: Writing free documentation/GNOME books]]
X-FileLength: are infinite where infinity is set to 255 characters
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From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
To: miguel@roxanne.nuclecu.unam.mx
Subject: [gnome-list-request@gnome.org: Re: Writing free documentation/GNOME books]
Reply-to: rms@gnu.org
Would you please send my message through to the list?
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To: rms@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Writing free documentation/GNOME books
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I recently talked to two very dear friends of mine who are working
on two books about GNOME programming. With two publishing companies.
One company I will call A and the other I will call B.
Both A and B are offering the authors of the books 1 dollar per
book sold plus some money in advance which varies for books that are
sold to the end user for something in the range of 25-40 dollars.
Companies A and B have estimated selling something between 10k and
20k books. Company A has shown some interested in exploring making
the source open-source, but the last time I talked to them, they were
no longer going to make the GNOME book free.
The FSF would gladly pay someone $20k for the rights to a well-written
and comprehensive GNOME programming manual. We would then publish as
free documentation--free as in freedom, of course. We would sell
copies in bookstores, just as these companies do, just we do for our
existing manuals.
We also pay people to write manuals; we are paying two people now for
this, and we have the money to pay another--provided we find someone
with a proven ability to do the job, of course.
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