Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!seismo!dimacs.rutgers.edu!rutgers!netsys!len
From: l...@netsys.NETSYS.COM (Len Rose)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Smear Campaign
Summary: So.. What else is going to happen
Keywords: SS Rumor
Message-ID: <196@netsys.NETSYS.COM>
Date: 10 Oct 90 03:53:40 GMT
Organization: Netsys Inc., Philadelphia
Lines: 54
Posted: Wed Oct 10 04:53:40 1990
Here is an article posted in comp.sources.wanted/alt.sources.d
I cannot defend myself very well against this since it has been
sent to every site in the world. If I had done something like this,
perhaps the charges I am facing would be different. All I can say is
that I can account for anything I ever sold to anyone.
# BEGINNING OF ARTICLE
>Path: lsicom2!uunet!snorkelwacker!usc!cs.utexas.edu!execu!sequoia!rpp386!jfh
>From: j...@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
>Newsgroups: comp.sources.wanted,alt.sources.d
>Subject: Re: System V uptime
>Message-ID: <18...@rpp386.cactus.org>
>Date: 9 Oct 90 04:09:20 GMT
>References: <1...@netsys.NETSYS.COM>
>Reply-To: j...@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
>Followup-To: alt.sources.d,comp.sources.wanted
>Organization: Lone Star Cafe and BBS Service
>Lines: 29
>Xref: lsicom2 comp.sources.wanted:1152 alt.sources.d:327
>X-Clever-Slogan: Recycle or Die.
In article <1...@netsys.NETSYS.COM> l...@netsys.NETSYS.COM (Len Rose) writes:
>Hi.. I used to have this source, but now it's temporarily
>unavailable.. (It went with the rest of my software and equipment)
>
>If someone can lend a hand and send me a copy, I'd appreciate it.
>Or, perhaps a pointer to an ftp site.
just as a note, this is the same len rose that sold stolen
computer equipment to a number of close personal friends of
mine. there has never been any doubt in their minds that
len was well aware of the stolen-ness of the equipment which
he was selling them.
perhaps we could have mr. rose detail the circumstances
surrounding his arrest, including the reasons and evidence
which the government has. giving aid or comfort to mr. rose
would be akin to giving benedict arnold a congressional
medal of honor.
it is also worth noting that a number of people involved
in operation sun devil have had some direct or indirect
dealings with mr. rose. giving him source code would be
like giving the government an excuse to search and sieze
your computer.
--
John F. Haugh II UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 832-8832 Domain: j...@rpp386.cactus.org
"SCCS, the source motel! Programs check in and never check out!"
-- Ken Thompson
# END OF ARTICLE
Path: gmdzi!unido!isaak!escher!nadia!smurf!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!
samsung!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!netsys!lsicom2!len
From: l...@lsicom2.UU.NET (Len Rose)
Newsgroups: alt.sources.d,comp.sources.wanted
Subject: Re: System V uptime
Message-ID: <1096@lsicom2.UU.NET>
Date: 10 Oct 90 04:00:05 GMT
References: <195@netsys.NETSYS.COM> <18577@rpp386.cactus.org>
Followup-To: alt.sources.d
Organization: LSI Communications
Lines: 51
Posted: Wed Oct 10 05:00:05 1990
I don't know what to say... Mr. Haugh has made a grave mistake, and
may have ruined my second chance for getting a job to support my
family. The below comments by Mr. Haugh are not true and if they were
true, I would have been charged. The Secret Service has used this
outright lie to damage my reputation. Whenever my attorneys confronted
the SS with this , they have always backed down.
By this time, this article has spread throughout the net, and there is
little I can do to control the damage Mr. Haugh has seen fit to inflict.
Mr. Haugh, I suggest you get yourself a really great attorney, because I
won't stop until you are made to pay for this.
(God, I always thought I'd never say something like that on the net)
Sincerely,
Len
j...@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
#In article <1...@netsys.NETSYS.COM> l...@netsys.NETSYS.COM (Len Rose) writes:
#>Hi.. I used to have this source, but now it's temporarily
#>unavailable.. (It went with the rest of my software and equipment)
#>
#>If someone can lend a hand and send me a copy, I'd appreciate it.
#>Or, perhaps a pointer to an ftp site.
#just as a note, this is the same len rose that sold stolen
#computer equipment to a number of close personal friends of
#mine. there has never been any doubt in their minds that
#len was well aware of the stolen-ness of the equipment which
#he was selling them.
#perhaps we could have mr. rose detail the circumstances
#surrounding his arrest, including the reasons and evidence
#which the government has. giving aid or comfort to mr. rose
#would be akin to giving benedict arnold a congressional
#medal of honor.
#it is also worth noting that a number of people involved
#in operation sun devil have had some direct or indirect
#dealings with mr. rose. giving him source code would be
#like giving the government an excuse to search and sieze
#your computer.
#--
#John F. Haugh II UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
#Ma Bell: (512) 832-8832 Domain: j...@rpp386.cactus.org
#"SCCS, the source motel! Programs check in and never check out!"
# -- Ken Thompson
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!sunic!uupsi!rpi!dali.cs.montana.edu!
uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!emory!rsiatl!jgd
From: j...@rsiatl.UUCP (John G. DeArmond)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Smear Campaign
Keywords: SS Rumor
Message-ID: <4249@rsiatl.UUCP>
Date: 10 Oct 90 21:42:53 GMT
References: <196@netsys.NETSYS.COM>
Organization: Radiation Systems, Inc.
(a thinktank, motorcycle, car and gun works facility)
Lines: 47
Posted: Wed Oct 10 22:42:53 1990
l...@netsys.NETSYS.COM (Len Rose) writes:
>Here is an article posted in comp.sources.wanted/alt.sources.d
>I cannot defend myself very well against this since it has been
>sent to every site in the world. If I had done something like this,
>perhaps the charges I am facing would be different. All I can say is
>that I can account for anything I ever sold to anyone.
[article by John Haugh deleted]
So why don't you start accounting, Len? I don't know about the rest of
this group but of late I've begun to think that maybe the government
might just have a good case against you. And I'm pretty sure that
John Haugh is a straight shooter.
You know, when your case first was made public, I felt a combination of
outrage and pity. Outrage at the government and pity for you. As you've
reappeared on this net and continued to post, my feelings have evolved
first to a mix of outrage toward the government and "What a niave idiot"
toward you. If I were a government prosecutor, I'd be leaping with glee
at your postings here. And then you come on the net and ask for source
that appears to me to be a request for proprietary materials.
Now I'm not so sure I'm outraged so much at the government and I'm
beginning to think that maybe you are getting what you deserve. I'm
beginning to think that you're one of those fellows who makes it possible
for the government to make horrible case law that then screws us all.
And if you keep running your mouth here, the government can just let you
present its case for them. I have a very good hunch that if your case
was only what you represent it to be, the EFF would be there helping and
the government would be backing out after its previous embarrisment.
Unless they've done something they've not announced, I've not seen it.
So you might do yourself some good by answering John's charges. After
you clear it with your lawyer (you have learned that lession, I hope.).
I really hope you are telling it straight, not because I particularly
care what happens to you but because I'm scared shitless of what
our government is going to be able to do with this case. You've tickled
the tail of the dragon and it bit back. The problem is, the bite is going
to get us all. Thanks a lot.
John
--
John De Armond, WD4OQC | We can no more blame our loss of freedom on congress
Radiation Systems, Inc. | than we can prostitution on pimps. Both simply
Atlanta, Ga | provide broker services for their customers.
{emory,uunet}!rsiatl!jgd| - Dr. W Williams | **I am the NRA**
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!sunic!uupsi!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!
wuarchive!mit-eddie!rutgers!netsys!daemon
From: niu.bitnet!TK0J...@netsys.NETSYS.COM
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: RE: Mr. Armond's \ campaign\ response
Message-ID: <199@netsys.NETSYS.COM>
Date: 11 Oct 90 09:41:24 GMT
Sender: dae...@netsys.NETSYS.COM
Lines: 53
Posted: Thu Oct 11 10:41:24 1990
Let me see if I have John De Armond's letter straight: First, he bitches that
Len Rose "shoots his mouth off," then he says that Len Rose should talk??
First he calls Len naive, then he claims that Len should answer somebody's
charges who has presented only hearsay rumor? He wants Len Rose to "come
clean," but acknowledges that this may be dodgy without clearing it with an
attorney whose advice will be to "say nothing?" Mr. Armand seems on one hand
to demand that Len talk, but on the other takes a swipe at him for having
talked in ways that an attorney might find unwise. C'mon! One is still
innocent in our society until *proven* guilty, and trial by net-threat and
innuendo is reprehensible.
Perhaps John De Armond can answer a couple of questions for the rest of us:
1. Give us some examples of Len "shooting his mouth off?" His posts on
eff.talk hardly fit that description, so perhaps it occured
elsewhere and this info could be passed to us in private mail.
2. When did Len ask for anything on the nets that could be even remotely
inferred as asking for proprietary source code? Many of us have missed it,
so perhaps you could send us via private e-mail the cites to which you
refer.
Whether Len is innocent or guilty of the current charges will be determined by
the courts, not by smear campaigns. May I also remind you that Mr. Hough made
a rather ambiguous allusion to the fact that Len had "direct or indirect
dealings" with some of those searched in Operation Sun Devil, although it is
not clear why this is significant. However, if we do grant whatever point he
seems to trying to make (which is guilt by association), Mr. Hough seems to
acknowledge equally direct links: Some of his "close personal friends" have
purchased goods which they had no doubt to being stolen?? Uh, hate to be the
bearer of bad tidings, but in most states this is a felony if known prior to
purchase. If discovered after the fact they are, in most states, required to
report it, or they may be subject to a variety of felony or misdemeanor
charges, depending on the state (ranging from trafficking/receiving to
concealing a crime).
I am told that, for whatever reasons, Mr. Hough may retract his statement. If
so, let's put this unfortunate episode behind us and use it as a lesson, one
which Mr. Armand implicitly makes in his final paragraph: The issues some of
us are trying to raise are not about any one individual, so let's not engage
in personality assassination or smear campaigns. The issues are much broader
and involve the relationship between electronic media and Constitutional
protections. Those who support Len Rose have not, to my knowledge, made any
judgment regarding his innocence, but instead focus on such silly issues as
due process, the ambiguity of statutes that appear to allow extreme
enforcement latitude, and other fundamental principles around which there is
room for legitimate intellectual debate and disagreement. The continued
attempts of some to personalize these issues in the most mean-spirited manner
is counter-productive.
Jim Thomas
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!sunic!hagbard!eru!bloom-beacon!snorkelwacker!
usc!cs.utexas.edu!execu!sequoia!rpp386!jfh
From: j...@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.sources.d,comp.sources.wanted
Subject: Re: Mr. Armond's \ campaign\ response
Message-ID: <18588@rpp386.cactus.org>
Date: 11 Oct 90 19:32:55 GMT
References: <199@netsys.NETSYS.COM>
Reply-To: j...@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Lone Star Cafe and BBS Service
Lines: 64
Posted: Thu Oct 11 20:32:55 1990
X-Clever-Slogan: Recycle or Die.
In article <1...@netsys.NETSYS.COM> niu.bitnet!TK0J...@netsys.NETSYS.COM writes:
>I am told that, for whatever reasons, Mr. Hough may retract his statement. If
>so, let's put this unfortunate episode behind us and use it as a lesson, ...
Please, let me speak for myself - you have a hard enough time just spelling
my name correctly ;-) I hope that this article clears up some of the
misunderstandings which may have arisen as a result of that original
article.
I have asked someone closer to this situation to provide me with some
additional information regarding this case, and at that time will decide
what form any retraction or correction will take. I have cancelled that
article some time ago because there may have been inaccurate information
contained in it, even though I believed that information to be accurate
at the time.
I would like to say that the information which I alluded to will be given
to the Secret Service. This does not mean that the information is true or
false or that Len Rose is guilty or innocent of anything. I am simply going
to give the Secret Service the information on which I based my statement.
It is up to them to investigate the information and to determine Len's
guilt or innocence. I will not comment any further regarding the persons
or events mentioned in that posting.
Also, I would like to say that it is up to each and every individual to
determine the extent to which they wish to trust Len. Since I have been
injured by Operation Sun Devil I do not have a very objective opinion
concerning Len Rose or any of the other defendants. This is unfortunate
for them, but again, it merely reflects my personal understanding of the
facts surrounding this case, not any absolute statement of truth. That I
do not personally trust Len Rose is my perogative and should not be
construed to be a statement of guilt or innocence or of Len's general
trustworthyness.
Finally, that people who were associated with Len Rose have been
investigated by the Secret Service should not be taken to be a statement
of their guilt or innocence, nor should it be taken to be a statement
that associating with Len Rose will subject you to government investigation
with any degree of certainty. It is a statement of the historical behavior
of the Secret Service as evidenced by the number of friends and associates
of Len who have been investigated. Note also that merely being investigated
does not imply ones guilt or innocence.
In closing, a large number of people have been injured during Operation
Sun Devil, and a good number of those people are most certainly innocent
and do not deserve to have their reputations or honor further tarnished.
No doubt the government will continue its investigation with the same
wrecklessness which we have seen to date, and no doubt there will be more
innocent bystanders swept along as they go. I do believe that everyone is
innocent until proven guilty, but as I said at the beginning, my involvement
with persons associated with Operation Sun Devil has made me less than
objective and perhaps overly cautious. Prior to Operation Sun Devil I
considered Len to be a reasonably friendly individual who was of some
value to the community as a whole. I hope that justice is served in this
case, whatever the outcome may be, and that the innocent people are able
to regain their reputations and put the entire mess behind them.
Thank you for your time and I hope you will understand that I may not
be able to comment further on any issues which you may wish to raise.
--
John F. Haugh II UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 832-8832 Domain: j...@rpp386.cactus.org
"SCCS, the source motel! Programs check in and never check out!"
-- Ken Thompson
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!sunic!uupsi!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!
cs.utexas.edu!execu!sequoia!rpp386!jfh
From: j...@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Mr. Armond's \ campaign\ response
Message-ID: <18590@rpp386.cactus.org>
Date: 11 Oct 90 19:39:29 GMT
References: <199@netsys.NETSYS.COM> <18588@rpp386.cactus.org>
Reply-To: j...@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Organization: Lone Star Cafe and BBS Service
Lines: 11
Posted: Thu Oct 11 20:39:29 1990
X-Clever-Slogan: Recycle or Die.
One last thing - since several others have decided to bring my name
into this group's discussion without my knowlege or consent, I am going
to ask each and every one of you to refrain from involving me in your
fight against Len. Since this discussion is between Len and myself,
I would expect that Len and I will have to be the ones to resolve
any misunderstanding.
--
John F. Haugh II UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 832-8832 Domain: j...@rpp386.cactus.org
"SCCS, the source motel! Programs check in and never check out!"
-- Ken Thompson