Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!wuarchive!emory!gatech!mcnc!ecsgate!ecsvax!seals
From: se...@uncecs.edu (Larry W. Seals)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Len Rose and problems in Illinois
Message-ID: <1990Oct29.175540.23987@uncecs.edu>
Date: 29 Oct 90 17:55:40 GMT
Organization: UNC Educational Computing Service
Lines: 24
Posted: Mon Oct 29 18:55:40 1990
I just noted a posting in comp.dcom.telecom concerning more problems
for Len Rose. Apparently he moved to Illinois in response to a job
offer from a software house there. After a week on the job he was
accused of unauthorized access of files and confronted with a certain
posting being circulated on USENET concerning alleged wrongdoings.
According to the post, he has been jailed for "computer tampering".
This whole thing is starting to smell really fishy. Has Mr. Rose
become some sort of fixation for the feds, or is he a warning to the
rest of us to mind our manners and keep our heads down? While what I
know of Len is through the media and on USENET, it appears that
either the powers that be want to break him completely or he is very
self-destructive.
If the former is true then it brings to mind a line I heard in
conjunction with some horror film a while back:
"Be afraid. Be very afraid."
***********************************************************************
Larry Seals @ Trailing Edge Software - "When it doesn't have to be
the very best!"
"I didn't sell my soul, I just took out a loan..." - B. Hornsby
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!lll-winken!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!
gatech!mcnc!ecsgate!ecsvax!seals
From: se...@uncecs.edu (Larry W. Seals)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Len Rose and problems in Illinois
Message-ID: <1990Oct30.154415.14590@uncecs.edu>
Date: 30 Oct 90 15:44:15 GMT
References: <1990Oct29.175540.23987@uncecs.edu>
<1990Oct30.035606.1282@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Organization: UNC Educational Computing Service
Lines: 35
Posted: Tue Oct 30 16:44:15 1990
I neglected to mention that the original poster in comp.dcom.telecom
reported that Agent Foley (who I'm sure is familiar to folks in
these parts) came to visit Len just prior to his being fired, having
been alerted by Len's new employer as to the alleged transgressions.
The original author found the whole episode passing strange (as do I).
While my rational being tells me there was no conspiracy, I've read
enough of the government's overreaction to computer security threats
to really begin to wonder. Consider the following:
Len was confronted with a Usenet posting (whatever form it was in) of
alleged wrong-doing. Does the employer have or know someone with access
to Usenet or was the information supplied from somewhere else? If the
employer has access, did he have any knowledge of Len's past brushes
with the law and yet hire him anyway (closely monitoring his activity)?
Possibly the posting came from Foley who just happened to be johnny-on-
the-spot (keeping tabs on Len?).
As I noted before, this whole thing stinks. And as others here have
mentioned, it casts a pall on this particular medium of freedom of
expression. If I can access this forum (and others), so can those who
see this as the new anarchy and who are dedicated to eliminating it. I
have never been one of those who sees a conspiracy behind every act,
but I suddenly feel a cold chill down my spine...
Is the New Inquisition here?
***********************************************************************
Larry Seals @ Trailing Edge Software - "When it doesn't have to be the
very best!"
"It's time to stop... Hey, what's that sound? Everybody look what's
going down..." - Buffalo Springfield
***********************************************************************
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!sunic!uupsi!rpi!julius.cs.uiuc.edu!usc!rutgers!
mcnc!uvaarpa!murdoch!astsun7.astro.Virginia.EDU!gl8f
From: g...@astsun7.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Len Rose and problems in Illinois
Message-ID: <1990Oct30.035606.1282@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Date: 30 Oct 90 03:56:06 GMT
References: <1990Oct29.175540.23987@uncecs.edu>
Sender: n...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU
Organization: Department of Astronomy, University of Virginia
Lines: 12
Posted: Tue Oct 30 04:56:06 1990
In article <1990Oct29.175540.23...@uncecs.edu> se...@uncecs.edu (Larry W. Seals)
writes:
>After a week on the job he was
>accused of unauthorized access of files and confronted with a certain
>posting being circulated on USENET concerning alleged wrongdoings.
>According to the post, he has been jailed for "computer tampering".
Which just goes to show that an apology can never catch up with a
rumor. I hope you're happy, Mr. Haugh, and I hope that if Len was
fired merely over a rumor, he gets compensation.
But I have doubts about either.
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!sunic!uupsi!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!
sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!rsiatl!jgd
From: j...@rsiatl.UUCP (John G. DeArmond)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Len Rose and problems in Illinois
Message-ID: <4576@rsiatl.UUCP>
Date: 31 Oct 90 08:00:42 GMT
References: <1990Oct29.175540.23987@uncecs.edu>
<1990Oct30.035606.1282@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Organization: Radiation Systems, Inc.
(a thinktank, motorcycle, car and gun works facility)
Lines: 38
Posted: Wed Oct 31 09:00:42 1990
g...@astsun7.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes:
>>After a week on the job he was
>>accused of unauthorized access of files and confronted with a certain
>>posting being circulated on USENET concerning alleged wrongdoings.
>>According to the post, he has been jailed for "computer tampering".
>Which just goes to show that an apology can never catch up with a
>rumor. I hope you're happy, Mr. Haugh, and I hope that if Len was
>fired merely over a rumor, he gets compensation.
>But I have doubts about either.
As long as we are talking about doubts, let me pose a couple. If:
John Haugh is accurate in his description of the crimes and/or
Len is guilty of the first offense and/or
Len was fired because he hacked and/or
Len lied on his application regarding being arrested and the
company used THAT and not the mere fact that he had been arrested,
Then will YOU post an appology to John? And will you publicly admit
that you were wrong? Accountability goes both ways, you know. Since
very few of us have any firsthand knowledge of any of this, it might
be constructive to assume that if John says he has personal knowledge
of something, to believe him until proof to the contrary is provided.
I don't know John but I suspect that no one short of a madman would
take on the liability associated with his accusation unless he has
irrefutable proof.
Time will tell.
John
--
John De Armond, WD4OQC | "The truly ignorant in our society are those people
Radiation Systems, Inc. | who would throw away the parts of the Constitution
Atlanta, Ga | they find inconvenient." -me Defend the 2nd
{emory,uunet}!rsiatl!jgd| with the same fervor as you do the 1st.
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!execu!sequoia!rpp386!jfh
From: j...@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Len Rose and problems in Illinois
Summary: be very careful what you say about len or me.
Message-ID: <18663@rpp386.cactus.org>
Date: 31 Oct 90 18:39:41 GMT
References: <1990Oct29.175540.23987@uncecs.edu>
<1990Oct30.035606.1282@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <4576@rsiatl.UUCP>
Reply-To: j...@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Lone Star Cafe and BBS Service
Lines: 64
Posted: Wed Oct 31 19:39:41 1990
X-Clever-Slogan: Recycle or Die.
In article <4...@rsiatl.UUCP> j...@rsiatl.UUCP (John G. DeArmond) writes:
>g...@astsun7.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes:
[potentially libelous stuff deleted]
>>But I have doubts about either.
>
>As long as we are talking about doubts, let me pose a couple. If:
[potentially libelous stuff deleted]
first, i would like to state that i'd prefer to be left out of this
latest round of len/john bashing. i am certain that len has many
friends in this group who would like to see him found innocent, and
i can say that continuing to keep the len/john bashing fight alive
will only hurt his chances. len cannot comment on his situation
for legal reasons, and i will not make any futher comments for the
same reasons.
second, i would like to repeat the advice of an attorney who told
me that repeating a libelous statement is libel. you can attribute
it to anyone you want, but you accept the legal liability for your
own statements and for repeating the statements of others. mike
godwin, the resident EFF attorney, can elaborate on this if you
have any questions. i have been collecting postings by those
people who continue to re-post information which they allege that
i posted, and will use it in my defense should any legal action
be brought. by getting involved in this discussion you are making
yourself a potential party to a lawsuit.
third, i have provided the secret service with the information
which i have. merely having information does not make it true
or false, i have simply complied with the recommendations of
legal counsel. i have no comment on whether the information is
true or false, that is for the judicial system to determine.
i have no comment as to the content of what i told them, only
to say that i believe that i have fulfilled my obligations under
the law.
fourth, i do not have the time to read every article which appears
here, and for that reason will begin archiving them all. it
would be wise to refrain from making any statements concerning any
of len's or my troubles as they may be used against either len or
yourself. do not repeat a statement as being true simply because
someone else said it. if the statement is libelous, you have just
potentially committed libel. some of you think you may repeat
anything which len or i said without fear of being sued, and that
just isn't so. this is one of those times when silence is the
best course of action.
finally, i am sorry that len was arrested recently. it is
unfortunate that he continues to have problems. just keep
in mind that his being arrested does not mean that he is guilty
of anything. i will say that my initial impression of len several
years ago was that he was a very friendly and helpful person, and
i was shocked when i heard of his arrest and investigation by the
secret service. i tend to be very trusting of people and
unfortunately may have placed too much trust in what the secret
service was telling us.
--
John F. Haugh II UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 832-8832 Domain: j...@rpp386.cactus.org
"SCCS, the source motel! Programs check in and never check out!"
-- Ken Thompson
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!world!eff!mnemonic
From: mnemo...@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Len Rose and problems in Illinois
Message-ID: <1990Nov1.124525.15730@eff.org>
Date: 1 Nov 90 12:45:25 GMT
References: <4576@rsiatl.UUCP> <1990Oct31.170242.17893@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
<4583@rsiatl.UUCP>
Organization: The Electronic Frontier Foundation
Lines: 16
Posted: Thu Nov 1 13:45:25 1990
Speculations here about Len's guilt or innocence will only hurt
him. No one who has posted so far has the full facts about this
case, which makes such speculation particularly irresponsible,
in my opinion.
--Mike
--
Mike Godwin, (617) 864-0665 |"If the doors of perception were cleansed
mnemo...@well.sf.ca.us | every thing would appear to man as it is,
Electronic Frontier | infinite."
Foundation | --Blake
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!wuarchive!emory!gatech!mcnc!ecsgate!ecsvax!seals
From: se...@uncecs.edu (Larry W. Seals)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Len Rose and problems in Illinois
Summary: Range war on the frontier...
Message-ID: <1990Nov1.175408.4690@uncecs.edu>
Date: 1 Nov 90 17:54:08 GMT
References: <1990Oct29.175540.23987@uncecs.edu>
<1990Nov1.060754.639@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
Organization: UNC Educational Computing Service
Lines: 31
Posted: Thu Nov 1 18:54:08 1990
Well, now. This thread has turned nasty, hasn't it? When I originally
posted regarding Len's problems, I had no idea it would start a range
war.
I realize my ignorance of libel laws (especially where the net is
concerned) but I really have a tough time with this business. When
does conjecture on a given subject become the factual basis for some
sort of litigation? I have not seen anyone here make any sort of
assertion of fact that Mr. Haugh was in any way responsible for any
of Len's problems. What Mr. Haugh knows is the sole exclusive
province of Mr. Haugh, his attorney and anyone else he makes privy
to it. But I feel that once he intimated to us (via the net) that he
knew something and even disclosed the subject of what he knew, he
opened the door for speculation and conjecture. I may have missed a
posting, but I just don't recall anyone saying that Mr. Haugh caused any
of Len's misfortune.
So... I know you're really busy, Mr. Godwin, but I think we could use
a bit of legal advice here. I thought the purpose of this group was
to foster an understanding of the perils and pitfalls of the "new
frontier" not to contribute to them.
Oh, well. I suppose I'll keep an eye out for the sheriff...
***********************************************************************
Larry Seals @ Trailing Edge Software - "Solving tomorrow's problems
with yesterday's technology."
"I feel the blues tumblin' down like rain..." - Pat Travers
***********************************************************************
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!world!eff!mnemonic
From: mnemo...@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Len Rose and problems in Illinois
Message-ID: <1990Nov1.215044.16755@eff.org>
Date: 1 Nov 90 21:50:44 GMT
References: <1990Oct29.175540.23987@uncecs.edu>
<1990Nov1.060754.639@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <1990Nov1.175408.4690@uncecs.edu>
Organization: The Electronic Frontier Foundation
Lines: 22
Posted: Thu Nov 1 22:50:44 1990
In article <1990Nov1.175408.4...@uncecs.edu> se...@uncecs.edu (Larry W. Seals) writes:
>So... I know you're really busy, Mr. Godwin, but I think we could use
>a bit of legal advice here. I thought the purpose of this group was
>to foster an understanding of the perils and pitfalls of the "new
>frontier" not to contribute to them.
I'm not sure what legal information you're asking for, Larry. And
"Mr. Godwin" was my father.
--Mike
--
Mike Godwin, (617) 864-0665 |"If the doors of perception were cleansed
mnemo...@well.sf.ca.us | every thing would appear to man as it is,
Electronic Frontier | infinite."
Foundation | --Blake
Path: gmdzi!unido!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!execu!sequoia!rpp386!jfh
From: j...@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: The nature of libel
Message-ID: <18668@rpp386.cactus.org>
Date: 2 Nov 90 00:46:46 GMT
References: <1990Oct29.175540.23987@uncecs.edu>
<1990Nov1.060754.639@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> <1990Nov1.175408.4690@uncecs.edu>
Reply-To: j...@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Organization: Lone Star Cafe and BBS Service
Lines: 25
Posted: Fri Nov 2 01:46:46 1990
X-Clever-Slogan: Recycle or Die.
In article <1990Nov1.175408.4...@uncecs.edu> se...@uncecs.edu (Larry W. Seals)
writes:
> But I feel that once he intimated to us (via the net) that he
>knew something and even disclosed the subject of what he knew, he
>opened the door for speculation and conjecture.
My understanding of libel laws, and Mike will correct me I am
sure, is that repeating a libelous statement is itself libel.
You can speculate all you want, but you do so with your own
neck. This is why I will continue to mail little reminders
to each and every individual who posts anything in this thread
containing any reference to me or Len's problems.
And I will repeat one last time, the article which certain
people alleged that I posted contains some information which
was incorrect. Since it seems that everyone does not read
every article, and therefore may not have seen the retraction
that I posted shortly after being made aware of the facts,
I'd like to repeat what I wrote earlier. Len has never been
arrested or convicted of any of the activities which were
contained in that article.
--
John F. Haugh II UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 832-8832 Domain: j...@rpp386.cactus.org
"SCCS, the source motel! Programs check in and never check out!"
-- Ken Thompson