Hercules public license
Johnathan Doe
Jan 15, 2000
Could someone provide more information about the hercules public license?
From my reading it implies that the source cannot be used in a commercial
setting without special permission and that any changes freely contributed
can be sold as part of the product to those making commercial use. Isn't
this an open source project?????
doejohn2000@...
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6:38 pm
Re: Hercules public license
Roger Bowler
Jan 15, 2000
Johnathan Doe <doejohn2000@...> wrote:
>Could someone provide more information about the hercules public >license?
I'm glad you raised this point. As the list has grown to 55 members,
I'd just like to reiterate the licensing conditions to make sure there's
no misunderstanding.
>From my reading it implies that the source cannot be used
>in a commercial setting without special permission and that any
>changes freely contributed can be sold as part of the product to those
>making commercial use.
Your understanding is correct. The Hercules source code has been
made available free of charge for personal, non-commercial use.
Anyone may voluntarily submit code changes if they are happy for
such changes to be regulated by the same conditions.
It is true that I retain ownership of the product (I did, after all, spend
a considerable amount of my valuable time developing it), and in
theory I could sell the product commercially. In practice however,
I don't think this is likely to happen. The reason I released the
source code for public consumption is because Hercules makes
no sense commercially. You cannot run any current operating system
on it, because there is no vendor licence which allows you to do so.
And even if there were, the cost of such a licence would dwarf any
saving you could make on hardware costs. I really don't foresee a
rush of S/390 customers anxious to pay me for the privilege of
downgrading their mission critical systems to run at a snail's pace
on Intel processors :-) Hercules is a systems programmer's toy.
>Isn't this an open source project?????
By a strict definition of the term, it *is* open source. But if you mean,
isn't it GPL, then no, it is *not* GPL. Many people nowadays equate
open source with GPL, which is why I have stopped using the term
Open Source in relation to Hercules.
My views on GPL-type Open Source have been aired elsewhere, and
I won't bore the list by reiterating my opinions here. Suffice it to say
that I have never (with one small exception) released my work under
GPL, nor do I intend to do so in the future.
Roger Bowler.
10:52 pm
Re: Hercules public license
Jay Maynard
Jan 15, 2000
On Sat, Jan 15, 2000 at 10:52:13PM -0000, Roger Bowler wrote:
> >Isn't this an open source project?????
> By a strict definition of the term, it *is* open source.
By any definition of the term, it is open source. Equating "open source"
with the GNU General Public Virus is simply wrong.
> My views on GPL-type Open Source have been aired elsewhere, and
> I won't bore the list by reiterating my opinions here. Suffice it to say
> that I have never (with one small exception) released my work under
> GPL, nor do I intend to do so in the future.
...and indeed, this is one thing that attracts me to Hercules development:
the world of computing needs more examples of good, useful code that aren't
infected by the GPV.
11:27 pm
Re: Hercules public license
Johnathan Doe
Jan 16, 2000
>From: Jay Maynard <jmaynard@...>
>By any definition of the term, it is open source. Equating "open source"
>with the GNU General Public Virus is simply wrong.
I stand corrected, thanks.
>
> > My views on GPL-type Open Source have been aired elsewhere, and
> > I won't bore the list by reiterating my opinions here.
>
>..and indeed, this is one thing that attracts me to Hercules development:
>the world of computing needs more examples of good, useful code that aren't
>infected by the GPV.
Actually, its a very interesting development model, particularly in this
application, as so much "professional" knowledge is in the hands of folks
that want only to tinker. Therefore, a lead (commercial) developer with
skill but perhaps lacking some particulars on the architecture can trade
something the tinkerers want for something he needs, all without purchasing
the skill sets. (eg, employment) Facinating!
I have another question related to the comment Roger made regarding IBM
licenses. I don't understand the comment "You cannot run any current
operating system on it, because there is no vendor licence which allows you
to do so."
There seems to be some emulators of IBM hardware that do have the ability to
get IBM licenses (www.funsoft.com and I think I even heard of one other), so
why say in the FAQ that "the licensing terms for these operating systems do
not allow you to run them on your PC"?
doejohn2000@...
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12:13 am
Re: Hercules public license
Mitch Wright
Jan 16, 2000
Roger sells Herc a little short some times, there's a company with a
similar product charging ~$8k(and making money) and hercules is almost there.
So if Roger goes off and makes $100e6 on selling Hercules I'll bet $5 he'd
find it in the goodness of his heart to share with the people that helped
make it work. Beside he'll need a team of software engineers to maintain it
while he's on the beach. Hmmm maybe he should give stock per line of code....
Hercules is as Open Source as it gets. Just don't dirty it up with GPL code.
Regards, Mitch Wright
At 10:52 PM 1/15/00 +0000, you wrote:
>From: "Roger Bowler" <listmanager@...>
>
>Johnathan Doe <doejohn2000@...> wrote:
>>Could someone provide more information about the hercules public >license?
>I'm glad you raised this point. As the list has grown to 55 members,
>I'd just like to reiterate the licensing conditions to make sure there's
>no misunderstanding.
>
>>From my reading it implies that the source cannot be used
>>in a commercial setting without special permission and that any
>>changes freely contributed can be sold as part of the product to those
>>making commercial use.
>Your understanding is correct. The Hercules source code has been
>made available free of charge for personal, non-commercial use.
>Anyone may voluntarily submit code changes if they are happy for
>such changes to be regulated by the same conditions.
>
>It is true that I retain ownership of the product (I did, after all, spend
>a considerable amount of my valuable time developing it), and in
>theory I could sell the product commercially. In practice however,
>I don't think this is likely to happen. The reason I released the
>source code for public consumption is because Hercules makes
>no sense commercially. You cannot run any current operating system
>on it, because there is no vendor licence which allows you to do so.
>And even if there were, the cost of such a licence would dwarf any
>saving you could make on hardware costs. I really don't foresee a
>rush of S/390 customers anxious to pay me for the privilege of
>downgrading their mission critical systems to run at a snail's pace
>on Intel processors :-) Hercules is a systems programmer's toy.
>
>>Isn't this an open source project?????
>
>By a strict definition of the term, it *is* open source. But if you mean,
>isn't it GPL, then no, it is *not* GPL. Many people nowadays equate
>open source with GPL, which is why I have stopped using the term
>Open Source in relation to Hercules.
>
>My views on GPL-type Open Source have been aired elsewhere, and
>I won't bore the list by reiterating my opinions here. Suffice it to say
>that I have never (with one small exception) released my work under
>GPL, nor do I intend to do so in the future.
>
>Roger Bowler.
>
>
>
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>Files and archives at:
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>
>Get the latest version of Hercules from:
> http://www.snipix.freeserve.co.uk/hercules.htm
>
>
1:50 am
Re: Hercules public license
Johnathan Doe
Jan 16, 2000
>From: Mitch Wright <mew_jac@...>
> Roger sells Herc a little short some times, there's a company with a
>similar product charging ~$8k(and making money) and hercules is almost
>there.
Mitch, do you know who is currently selling a functional emulator for 8K?
Does it run modern OS's? Also, what is the Herc charge for using it in a
commercial setting?
doejohn2000@...
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2:26 pm
Re: Hercules public license
Mitch Wright
Jan 16, 2000
http://www.funsoft.com/ I'm not certain about the price, think it's around 8K.
For commercial use of Hercules contact Roger(the list owner) in a private
Email using your real name.
--
At 06:26 AM 1/16/00 -0800, you wrote:
>From: "Johnathan Doe" <doejohn2000@...>
>
>
>
>
>>From: Mitch Wright <mew_jac@...>
>
>> Roger sells Herc a little short some times, there's a company with a
>>similar product charging ~$8k(and making money) and hercules is almost
>>there.
>
>Mitch, do you know who is currently selling a functional emulator for 8K?
>Does it run modern OS's? Also, what is the Herc charge for using it in a
>commercial setting?
>
>doejohn2000@...
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
>Independent contractors: Find your next project gig through JobSwarm!
> You can even make money by referring friends.
><a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/jobswarm2 ">Click Here</a>
>
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>
>Community email addresses:
> Post message: hercules-390@onelist.com
> Subscribe: hercules-390-subscribe@onelist.com
> Unsubscribe: hercules-390-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> List owner: hercules-390-owner@onelist.com
>
>Files and archives at:
> http://www.onelist.com/community/hercules-390
>
>Get the latest version of Hercules from:
> http://www.snipix.freeserve.co.uk/hercules.htm
>
>
2:26 pm
Re: Hercules public license
Jay Maynard
Jan 16, 2000
On Sat, Jan 15, 2000 at 04:13:18PM -0800, Johnathan Doe wrote:
> There seems to be some emulators of IBM hardware that do have the ability to
> get IBM licenses (www.funsoft.com and I think I even heard of one other), so
> why say in the FAQ that "the licensing terms for these operating systems do
> not allow you to run them on your PC"?
Unless there's a negotiated license in place with the OS vendor to allow you
to run a licensed OS (and, for that matter, program product) on your PC,
then the licensing terms indeed do not allow it. I would suspect that IBM
would happily sell you a license to run OS/390 on your PC, for a
not-very-small hunk of cash.
5:19 pm
Re: Hercules public license
Roger Bowler
Jan 16, 2000
Jay Maynard wrote:
>I would suspect that IBM would happily sell you a license to run
>OS/390 on your PC, for a not-very-small hunk of cash.
Hmm...I'm not so sure about that Jay. If IBM sold OS/390 to run
on a PC, IBM would need to support it. Which means the support
organization would need to be geared up to handle a new machine
type. And the machine would first need to be certified as reliable,
otherwise a lot of time would be wasted dealing with phantom
abends caused by a faulty ESA/390 implementation.
As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), Flex/ES customers are
able to obtain SCP licences because Fundamental Software have
obtained IBM certification for their platforms.
Regards, Roger Bowler.
9:17 pm
Hercules Public Licence
Roger Bowler
Jun 2, 2000
One recent member of the group has queried the Hercules Public License
(HPL).
I thought my recent announcement was pretty clear, but just to avoid
any doubt, I'll make it clearer:
I have granted Jay Maynard full delegated authority to receive
modifications on my behalf and to redistribute modified versions of
the code. For the purposes of the HPL, any modifications submitted to
Jay may be treated as having been submitted to the developer (me).
This is not a GPL project, and I am not forcing anyone to participate
if they don't like the licensing terms. Most members of the group
seem quite happy with the arrangements, but I cannot please everyone.
Rhetorical question: What happens if you buy a Microsoft product and
then decide you don't like the licensing agreement?
Roger Bowler
9:13 pm
Hercules Public Licence update
Jay Maynard
Jun 5, 2000
Roger has updated the Hercules Public Licence to make my status as
maintainer of the package explicit. The updated license is on the new web
site at http://jmaynard.home.texas.net/hercules/herclic.html .
Hopefully, this will answer any remaining questions you may have, but if
not, please feel free to drop me or Roger a note.
11:21 pm
Copyright 2000