zArchitecture

Ted Rolle

Apr 24, 2001

How do I get the 64-bit implementation of the instructions to work? What
compiler options/switches must I set? GENx370x390x900 to GENx370x390x900xz?
Is there anything else?

10:35 pm

zArchitecture

jj@...

Apr 25, 2001

Ted,
When you specify archmode esame in hercules.cnf you will
have a machine that supports the z/Architecture, you do
not need to set any compiler options or anything like that.
When you perform an IPL hercules (like a real 2064) will switch
to ESA/390 mode, and the operating system (Linux for zSeries,
z/VM or z/OS) will set the mode to 64 bit by issueing a SIGP
Set Architecture, after which the machine switches to
z/Architecture mode, and all 64 bit features and instructions
are available. If you IPL an ESA/390 type operating system
or have specified that you do not want 64 bit mode (ARCHLVL
1 or selecting a 32 bit nucleus for z/VM) then this SIGP will
not be issued and the operating system will remain in 32 bit mode.
The only OS that has been really well tested is linux for zSeries,
and there are a few 64 bit distributions available now.

Jan Jaeger.

--- In hercules-390@y..., Ted Rolle <trolle@u...> wrote:
> How do I get the 64-bit implementation of the instructions to work?
What
> compiler options/switches must I set? GENx370x390x900 to
GENx370x390x900xz?
> Is there anything else?

6:41 am

Re: zArchitecture

phil@...

May 10, 2001

> When you specify archmode esame in hercules.cnf you will
> have a machine that supports the z/Architecture, you do
> not need to set any compiler options or anything like that.

I was not aware that IBM had licensed the z/Architecture patents to
_ANYONE_ yet.

7:14 pm

Re: zArchitecture

Richard Higson

May 10, 2001

On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 07:14:56PM -0000, phil@...
wrote:
> To: hercules-390@yahoogroups.com
> From: phil@...
> Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:14:56 -0000
> Subject: [hercules-390] Re: zArchitecture
>
> I was not aware that IBM had licensed the z/Architecture patents to
> _ANYONE_ yet.
The PoP has been around since Jan 8 2001 as SA22-7832
I successfully booted my first hercules linux-s390x on 17.2.2001

I think that this group is somewhat remarkable.
Richard
--
Unix: Your gun, Your bullet, Your foot, Your choice.
M$-CE/ME/NT: Same as Unix, BUT: No choice, and We Aim Higher.
Have a nice day ;-) Richard Higson mailto:richard.higson@...

8:29 pm

Re: zArchitecture

phil@...

May 11, 2001

> > I was not aware that IBM had licensed the z/Architecture patents
to
> > _ANYONE_ yet.

> The PoP has been around since Jan 8 2001 as SA22-7832

> I successfully booted my first hercules linux-s390x on 17.2.2001
>
> I think that this group is somewhat remarkable.

No criticism of the group.

I've been around the IBM-compatible scene since 1978 - Itel, National
Advanced Systems, Comparex and Amdahl.

Possession of the PoP does NOT give you the right to implement it. A
great deal of the recent architecture is patented - see (e.g.) US
Patent 4366537 "Authorization Mechanism for Transfer of program
control or data between different address spaces having different
storage keys".

Implement THAT without a patent license and you're breaking the law.

Also note IBM's software licensing terms and conditions - if you run
licensed software on a system that does not have an assigned group or
other accepted means of licensing, the charge IBM makes is equivalent
to the HIGHEST group currently in use.

10:33 am

Re: zArchitecture (boring Law questions, non technical)

jim stephens

May 11, 2001

I don't know the law, and post the following to ask exactly what law is
broken and in what fashion. There certainly is room for debate as there
is in all legal questions

> <snip>
>
> Possession of the PoP does NOT give you the right to implement it. A
> great deal of the recent architecture is patented - see (e.g.) US
> Patent 4366537 "Authorization Mechanism for Transfer of program
> control or data between different address spaces having different
> storage keys".
>
> Implement THAT without a patent license and you're breaking the law.
>
> Also note IBM's software licensing terms and conditions - if you run
> licensed software on a system that does not have an assigned group or
> other accepted means of licensing, the charge IBM makes is equivalent
> to the HIGHEST group currently in use.

<snip>
from a site of papers on fair use:
http://www.utsystem.edu/ogc/intellectualproperty/copypol2.htm

Copyright does not protect, this Policy does not apply to,
and anyone may freely use*:

<snip>
- Facts
- Ideas, processes, methods, and systems described in
copyrighted works

the latter would seem to allow one to implement for fair use anything in
a copyrighted document.

the patent is another matter.

nearly everything I located discussed usage and infringement in a Product.
were Hercules a product, I suppose, then it might infringe. I don't know the

answer to that question at all.

I do have a sense that the old argument about patent vs. trade secret
protection
which has always been about disclosure and protection vs. keeping processes
secret is the essential one. The patent was specifically given a lifetime to
allow
ideas to be disclosed, exploited for a resonable time, then used to move on
in
other works, or discoveries.


The United States Constitution says:

The Congress shall have the power. . . To promote the Progress of
Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and
Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. .
.

The question of what can be done with the Patent while it is in force is
not mentioned in the constitution.

I do think that one can take things mentioned in patents and implement them
for your own use, but not for inclusion in other products, but someone will
have to comment on that. Again, the question of using Hercules to further
one's
own interests vs. using it as a product would be a major question there.

11:23 am

Re: zArchitecture (boring Law questions, non technical)

Jay Maynard

May 11, 2001

There's an upcoming summit on patents and Open Source software being
organized by Bruce Perens. Among the participants is IBM. Perens recently
published an article on his web site discussing software patents and such,
at http://perens.com/Articles/Patents.html ...and, deep in the article, is
this comment:

The meeting will simply be a discussion and a negotiation, none of it is
set in stone, but there are some things that the Free Software community
representatives might be likely to ask for. For example, we might ask
for some assurance that our corporate partners aren't going to sue us.
When Eric Raymond and I asked this of an IBM representative recently,
the answer was we're not prosecuting our patents against Open Source
developers.

I had dinner with Eric Raymond a couple of nights ago, and he had very good
things to say about IBM's take on open source. I'm not worried about IBM
coming after us for any potential patent infringement, and if they should do
so (never mind the PR problems it could create for them), we can always
simply stop infringing; there are no monetary damages that we would be
liable for, since no profits were made from the infringing article.

On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 02:46:10PM -0000,
phil@... wrote:
> Also - I'm not convinced that MVS 3.8j is necessarily freely useable.
> The Cross Memory Services patent that I noted earlier is basically
> related to the functions added to the 3033 to support 26-bit
> addressing - I believe there were BCP SPEs that exploited functions
> described in the patent.

Those functions were added in MVS/SE 3. Vanilla MVS 3.8 does not require or
exploit the 3033 enhancements. MVS/SE 3 would not run on a 370/158 because
it used those facilites, but MVS 3.8 would. Further, 26-bit addressing was
independent of the cross memory services facilities, though not as useful
without them; all 26-bit addressing is is adding the two high-order bits of
the page frame real address in low-order (and otherwise unused) bits of the
page table entry.

3:08 pm

Re: zArchitecture

Volker Bandke

May 11, 2001

And who needs it? Nobody is building the z/something Hardware. And
software cannot be patented. Neither can algorithms. Or mathematical
theorems. Or the law of gravity.

Why do self acclaimed lawyers pop up here every so often? And then, lawyers
with dubious qualifications at that .. like : A friend of mine was studying
law a few years back and told me ....



With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

To hell with criticism. Praise is good enough for me. -- T. Bankhead

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)



> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: phil@...
> [mailto:phil@...]
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Mai 2001 21:15
> An: hercules-390@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [hercules-390] Re: zArchitecture
>
>
> > When you specify archmode esame in hercules.cnf you will
> > have a machine that supports the z/Architecture, you do
> > not need to set any compiler options or anything like that.
>
> I was not aware that IBM had licensed the z/Architecture patents to
> _ANYONE_ yet.
>
>
> Community email addresses:
> Post message: hercules-390@yahoogroups.com
> Subscribe: hercules-390-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Unsubscribe: hercules-390-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> List owner: hercules-390-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Files and archives at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
>
> Get the latest version of Hercules from:
> http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

6:56 pm

Re: zArchitecture

Jay Maynard

May 11, 2001

On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 08:56:19PM +0200, Volker Bandke wrote:
> And who needs it? Nobody is building the z/something Hardware. And
> software cannot be patented. Neither can algorithms. Or mathematical
> theorems. Or the law of gravity.

Well, except that software can be patented in the US, and the EU is looking
at the issue...

> Why do self acclaimed lawyers pop up here every so often?

They pop up everywhere; it's just that they're more visible online.

7:16 pm

Re: zArchitecture

phil@...

May 11, 2001

> And who needs it? Nobody is building the z/something Hardware. And
> software cannot be patented. Neither can algorithms.

Remember this:

MICROSOFT MUST RECALL ALL MS-DOS WITH
DOUBLESPACE FROM RESELLERS

Microsoft Corp has been ordered to recall from resellers
worldwide all unsold copies of MS-DOS 6.0 that contains
DoubleSpace code judged to infringe the compression patents held
by Stac Electronics Inc - including any copies pre-installed on
unsold machines. Sitting in Los Angeles, Judge Edward Rafeedie
permanently enjoined Microsoft from selling any of the
infringing software, and to make the recall. Although Microsoft
immediately stopped selling the offending software, it did not
recall it from resellers. It is unclear how costly the recall
will be, but it is thought that most copies are now safely with
customers.

BINGO! If IBM turns round and does the same ... ?

11:30 pm

Re: zArchitecture

Jay Maynard

May 12, 2001

On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:30:00PM -0000,
phil@... wrote:
> BINGO! If IBM turns round and does the same ... ?

Then we do the best we can at getting folks to destroy any copies which
might be infringing, and go on with life.

Personally, I'm not worried. Patents are not like trademarks: They need not
be enforced rigorously to be valid. IBM's policy is not to enforce its
patents against open source code. Until they change that, Hercules is safe;
even if they do, we have the opportunity to negotiate an accomodation with
IBM, and if that fails, then we simply remove any code which may be
infringing.

12:19 am

Re: zArchitecture

Volker Bandke

May 12, 2001

Well, they (The EU) are looking at it for a long time now, not getting
anywhere..:}

With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

UFO's are for real: the Air Force doesn't exist.

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)


> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Jay Maynard [mailto:jmaynard@...]
> Gesendet: Freitag, 11. Mai 2001 21:17
> An: hercules-390@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: Re: AW: [hercules-390] Re: zArchitecture
>
>
> On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 08:56:19PM +0200, Volker Bandke wrote:
> > And who needs it? Nobody is building the z/something Hardware. And
> > software cannot be patented. Neither can algorithms. Or mathematical
> > theorems. Or the law of gravity.
>
> Well, except that software can be patented in the US, and the EU
> is looking
> at the issue...
>
> > Why do self acclaimed lawyers pop up here every so often?
>
> They pop up everywhere; it's just that they're more visible online.
>
> Community email addresses:
> Post message: hercules-390@yahoogroups.com
> Subscribe: hercules-390-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Unsubscribe: hercules-390-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> List owner: hercules-390-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Files and archives at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
>
> Get the latest version of Hercules from:
> http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

7:21 am

Re: zArchitecture (boring Law questions, non technical)

Michael Koehne

May 12, 2001

Moin Phil,

this thread comes up once a month. So some clarifications :

- Public Domain does not exist outside the USA.

- Copyright law in any state who signed the "Berner Übereinkunft" is,
that nobody has the right to use or copy a software execpt the author,
if the software does not have a copyright.

- Software patents and mathematical patents are illegal in most countries
outside the USA. This may change because of constant pressure of US
politics.

So back to the z patents. Implementing them in europe and offering a
german site as primary download location would make the patent illegal
and our implementation legal. Reimporting them into US would make them
illegal because of patent violation, similar to the Indian medical
generica as had been discussed with AIDs medicaments in south africa.

I would advise to move development to countries who signed the Berner
Übereinkunft, but who do not have patents on mathematical or software.

Bye Michael
--
mailto:kraehe@... UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.18'UNZ+1'
http://www.xml-edifact.org/ CETERUM CENSEO WINDOWS ESSE DELENDAM

3:06 pm

Re: zArchitecture (boring Law questions, non technical)

Peter D. Ward

May 12, 2001

Don't know why software patents are being discussed here, as IBM's patents in
this regard are not software patents. Seems to me that the issue is whether or
not a software implementation of a patented idea to accomplish the same effect
would be actionable if used without the patent holder's permission. Check for
instance the game emulator case law.

PDW

Michael Koehne wrote:

> Moin Phil,
>
> this thread comes up once a month. So some clarifications :
>
> - Public Domain does not exist outside the USA.
>
> - Copyright law in any state who signed the "Berner Übereinkunft" is,
> that nobody has the right to use or copy a software execpt the author,
> if the software does not have a copyright.
>
> - Software patents and mathematical patents are illegal in most countries
> outside the USA. This may change because of constant pressure of US
> politics.
>
> So back to the z patents. Implementing them in europe and offering a
> german site as primary download location would make the patent illegal
> and our implementation legal. Reimporting them into US would make them
> illegal because of patent violation, similar to the Indian medical
> generica as had been discussed with AIDs medicaments in south africa.
>
> I would advise to move development to countries who signed the Berner
> Übereinkunft, but who do not have patents on mathematical or software.
>
> Bye Michael
> --
> mailto:kraehe@... UNA:+.? 'CED+2+:::Linux:2.2.18'UNZ+1'
> http://www.xml-edifact.org/ CETERUM CENSEO WINDOWS ESSE DELENDAM
>
> Community email addresses:
> Post message: hercules-390@yahoogroups.com
> Subscribe: hercules-390-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Unsubscribe: hercules-390-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> List owner: hercules-390-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Files and archives at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
>
> Get the latest version of Hercules from:
> http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

3:36 pm

Copyright 2001