What is going on here??
mwuest@...
May 16, 2001
I'm loosing my religion, here. What is this? Why is every body trying
to put an OS on his/her Desktop which is so far out dated that it is
impossible to find living people which where working with it (I'm
talking about OS/360 MVT, MVS 3.8 etc. not hercules).
Some concerns of mine. How do I get a copy of OS/390 2.8 or 2.10? How
to I get a copy of DB2 7.1, CICS 4.1, WebSphere for OS/390 1.2, RACF,
SMP/E, DFSMS, DFHSM, IMS, LE/370, PL/1, C/370, WLM, and so on? I don't
think that IBM will send "test installations" to none ESA/390
Customers on a bundle of CDs. Well, how do I get this?
This kind of copying those specific Software products is skating on
-not thin, but - NO ICE.
I'm working with the mainframe since 1982 thru MVS/XA, MVS/ESA and now
OS/390. I'm a System Programmer for CICS and DB2, and some IMS. I'm
familiar with the OS/390 environment, and saw some realy awkward
questions. I think that the environment I'm working in (full parallel
sysplex on 32 CPUs 4GB real storage, around 86 CICS Regions, 28 DB2s,
19 IMSes, and a lot of non IBM Products on it. we handle around 8,000
- 10,000 user. Now will someone tell me how I can build a copy of this
environment on my 3 Linux Servers (each with dual 600Mhz/512 KB L2
cache 1GB RAM, 5 18GB Seagate SCSI/Ultra3 160 and 15K rpm)?
I can see hercules as a base for OS/390 development, but then where do
I get the OS/390 from?
A few days ago I talked to someone at IBM, and there was an
interesting point made. Let's say, if all of us (members of this
group, and I hope we have more than 100) would be willing to get a
official license from IBM, for the group only, we could get one for, I
would say around $500.-- USD/each and could make a deal with IBM
regarding their support and us developing OS/390 Software (System or
Application). It would need to be requested that this particulare
license would allow us to issue a copy of the software to each member
of the Group. Then of course IBM would have to supply Subsystems like
DB2, CICS, VTAM, TCP/IP etc. to those of us who need them to develop
there Software. Also certain members could create kind of sub-groups
for their specific interests.
Everyone, think about it. It could help all of us, we don't have to
become criminals by copying unauthorized OS/390 Software. We all know
that taking it from work would also be theft, and might result in
termination of employment.
Maybe someone has a better idea, I'm open. I just want to get the
OS/390 Software on a legal base, and do something productive with it.
1:26 am
Re: What is going on here??
John Summerfield
May 16, 2001
> I'm loosing my religion, here. What is this? Why is every body trying
> to put an OS on his/her Desktop which is so far out dated that it is
> impossible to find living people which where working with it (I'm
> talking about OS/360 MVT, MVS 3.8 etc. not hercules).
I remember OS/360. What do you want to know;-)
>
> Some concerns of mine. How do I get a copy of OS/390 2.8 or 2.10? How
Buy a licence from IBM
> to I get a copy of DB2 7.1, CICS 4.1, WebSphere for OS/390 1.2, RACF,
> SMP/E, DFSMS, DFHSM, IMS, LE/370, PL/1, C/370, WLM, and so on? I don't
> think that IBM will send "test installations" to none ESA/390
> Customers on a bundle of CDs. Well, how do I get this?
Talk to your IBM rep.
>
> This kind of copying those specific Software products is skating on
> -not thin, but - NO ICE.
I can't speak for absolutely everyone, but as far as I know everyone running
OS/390
and such has a licence to do so - a licence is certainly available for those
with a
PC390 card (or whatever it's called).
>
> I'm working with the mainframe since 1982 thru MVS/XA, MVS/ESA and now
> OS/390. I'm a System Programmer for CICS and DB2, and some IMS. I'm
> familiar with the OS/390 environment, and saw some realy awkward
> questions. I think that the environment I'm working in (full parallel
> sysplex on 32 CPUs 4GB real storage, around 86 CICS Regions, 28 DB2s,
> 19 IMSes, and a lot of non IBM Products on it. we handle around 8,000
> - 10,000 user. Now will someone tell me how I can build a copy of this
> environment on my 3 Linux Servers (each with dual 600Mhz/512 KB L2
> cache 1GB RAM, 5 18GB Seagate SCSI/Ultra3 160 and 15K rpm)?
I don't think you can, but I'm sure you can create a useful subset.
>
> I can see hercules as a base for OS/390 development, but then where do
> I get the OS/390 from?
>
> A few days ago I talked to someone at IBM, and there was an
> interesting point made. Let's say, if all of us (members of this
> group, and I hope we have more than 100) would be willing to get a
> official license from IBM, for the group only, we could get one for, I
> would say around $500.-- USD/each and could make a deal with IBM
> regarding their support and us developing OS/390 Software (System or
> Application). It would need to be requested that this particulare
> license would allow us to issue a copy of the software to each member
> of the Group. Then of course IBM would have to supply Subsystems like
> DB2, CICS, VTAM, TCP/IP etc. to those of us who need them to develop
> there Software. Also certain members could create kind of sub-groups
> for their specific interests.
>
> Everyone, think about it. It could help all of us, we don't have to
> become criminals by copying unauthorized OS/390 Software. We all know
> that taking it from work would also be theft, and might result in
> termination of employment.
>
> Maybe someone has a better idea, I'm open. I just want to get the
> OS/390 Software on a legal base, and do something productive with it.
It's an interesting idea. I think IBM's also considering "hacker licences." O do
know that some IBM software (such as DB2 for some platforms) can be downloaded
for developer use.
This is now a PL/1 compiler available from IBM for Linux (IA32).
--
Cheers
John Summerfield
http://www2.ami.com.au/ for OS/2 & linux information.
Configuration, networking, combined IBM ftpsites index.
Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/
Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my disposition.
1:52 am
IBM Software
Cory Hamasaki
May 18, 2001
** Reply to note from John Summerfield et al 16 May 2001 02:46:54 -0000
> This is now a PL/1 compiler available from IBM for Linux (IA32).
Interesting.
As for the rest of the discussion. Especially the possible terms of a
group or hobby license for OS/390 and other software, I think some of
us miss the point.
Set aside your hopes for a moment. Look at it from a "what's good for
IBM perspective."
Set aside any preconceived notions of copyright, licenses, etc. None of
that matters. What does matter is simply, "what's good for IBM."
What is good for IBM is to have folks like us running MVS, OS/390, and
all the other IBM software. The reason that IBM has not produced a CD
set with all the software and a license tailored for this group is,
we're not big enough to show up on their radar.
The whole point of the S/390 partners (or whatever it's called now), the
P/390, the H30, the loaner S/390 software, the NUMA-Q Flex campaign, the
whole point of it is to put software into the hands of people who will
write code for S/390.
The problem is that we're too small to matter. Or more precisely, we're
perceived as being too small to matter. I don't think we are but that's
our problem to solve.
Here's what we can do. I'm not telling you what to do, I'm tossing out
ideas for discussion.
1. Those of us who have S/390 products should put up webpages and links
to each other. Someone who has a Hercules master set of links should
link to all the S/390 product pages that are associated with Hercules.
Something like:
Hercules/390 - Used for S/390 development and testing by:
To the extent possible, there should be a common look and feel to all
the Hercules/390 - S/390 product pages. I envision a simple page that
front-ends your existing page.
This says two things, Hercules/390 is a viable development platform for
S/390 and S/390 product houses are using it.
2. If you're not already using Hercules/390, put it on your schedule.
In my case, I have a product, NXTract, that exports data from Oracle to
DB2 (and anything else). It's written in standard K&R C and has been
used in production by a half dozen shops but only on Windows x86. I
think it's one compile away from S/390.
I would think that both the DB2 and S/390 people would want me flogging
a NXTract/390. Especially if it gets a client off Oracle/Sun and onto
DB2/zSeries. (check it out at http://www.kiyoinc.com/nxtract.html)
I have an S/390 Partners membership and figured that if a client
requested an S/390 binary, I'd compile it using a Partner's
service or someone's P/390. I've received one gracious offer to use
available cycles.
3. We write a proposal *to* IBM to package and distribute an OS/390
developer's CD set which includes Hercules/390, a Linux, and OS/390.
The CD set would be offered ONLY to IBM S/390 Partners in Development
and would be an entry level system below the NUMA-Q Flex and under
similar terms.
As the Hercules emulator could be free (or there could be a fee), Linux
would be free, and the OS/390 and development toolset would be "loaner
software" as is the practice in S/390 Partners, IBM could offer this
soft-mainframe (softframe) for fifty dollars. They might give it
away at SHARE, "Give each of your systems programmers a test bed with
this new version of OS/390, DB2, RACF, whatever."
If it's self-installing, anyone with a spare Linux disk could be running
OS/390 and logging onto VTAM in a few hours.
Terms of the proposal *to* IBM would include a salary for Roger and
production costs for a few thousand CD sets. If it flies, there could
be follow on development.
That's it.
Reminder, put up pages of documentation for new users. I have a list of
topics at http://www.kiyoinc.com/hercdoc.html
Drop me a note if there's something I should link to.
Cory Hamasaki
2:26 pm
Re: IBM Software
Volker Bandke
May 18, 2001
Cory,
one problem exists: The terms and Conditions for the PID:
> The loaned software provided in this offering is for the exclusive use
> on the development system provided and cannot be copied, shared or used
> on another system without written permission from IBM.
How can I have Hercules as a development platform, when I cannot legally run
OS/390 on it?
A chicken and Egg problem......
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
When the candles are out all women are fair.
(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)
> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Cory Hamasaki [mailto:kiyoinc@...]
> Gesendet: Freitag, 18. Mai 2001 16:26
> An: hercules-390@yahoogroups.com
> Betreff: [hercules-390] IBM Software
>
>
> ** Reply to note from John Summerfield et al 16 May 2001 02:46:54 -0000
>
> > This is now a PL/1 compiler available from IBM for Linux (IA32).
>
> Interesting.
>
> As for the rest of the discussion. Especially the possible terms of a
> group or hobby license for OS/390 and other software, I think some of
> us miss the point.
>
> Set aside your hopes for a moment. Look at it from a "what's good for
> IBM perspective."
>
> Set aside any preconceived notions of copyright, licenses, etc. None of
> that matters. What does matter is simply, "what's good for IBM."
>
> What is good for IBM is to have folks like us running MVS, OS/390, and
> all the other IBM software. The reason that IBM has not produced a CD
> set with all the software and a license tailored for this group is,
> we're not big enough to show up on their radar.
>
> The whole point of the S/390 partners (or whatever it's called now), the
> P/390, the H30, the loaner S/390 software, the NUMA-Q Flex campaign, the
> whole point of it is to put software into the hands of people who will
> write code for S/390.
>
> The problem is that we're too small to matter. Or more precisely, we're
> perceived as being too small to matter. I don't think we are but that's
> our problem to solve.
>
> Here's what we can do. I'm not telling you what to do, I'm tossing out
> ideas for discussion.
>
> 1. Those of us who have S/390 products should put up webpages and links
> to each other. Someone who has a Hercules master set of links should
> link to all the S/390 product pages that are associated with Hercules.
>
> Something like:
>
> Hercules/390 - Used for S/390 development and testing by:
>
> To the extent possible, there should be a common look and feel to all
> the Hercules/390 - S/390 product pages. I envision a simple page that
> front-ends your existing page.
>
> This says two things, Hercules/390 is a viable development platform for
> S/390 and S/390 product houses are using it.
>
> 2. If you're not already using Hercules/390, put it on your schedule.
>
> In my case, I have a product, NXTract, that exports data from Oracle to
> DB2 (and anything else). It's written in standard K&R C and has been
> used in production by a half dozen shops but only on Windows x86. I
> think it's one compile away from S/390.
>
> I would think that both the DB2 and S/390 people would want me flogging
> a NXTract/390. Especially if it gets a client off Oracle/Sun and onto
> DB2/zSeries. (check it out at http://www.kiyoinc.com/nxtract.html)
>
> I have an S/390 Partners membership and figured that if a client
> requested an S/390 binary, I'd compile it using a Partner's
> service or someone's P/390. I've received one gracious offer to use
> available cycles.
>
> 3. We write a proposal *to* IBM to package and distribute an OS/390
> developer's CD set which includes Hercules/390, a Linux, and OS/390.
> The CD set would be offered ONLY to IBM S/390 Partners in Development
> and would be an entry level system below the NUMA-Q Flex and under
> similar terms.
>
> As the Hercules emulator could be free (or there could be a fee), Linux
> would be free, and the OS/390 and development toolset would be "loaner
> software" as is the practice in S/390 Partners, IBM could offer this
> soft-mainframe (softframe) for fifty dollars. They might give it
> away at SHARE, "Give each of your systems programmers a test bed with
> this new version of OS/390, DB2, RACF, whatever."
>
> If it's self-installing, anyone with a spare Linux disk could be running
> OS/390 and logging onto VTAM in a few hours.
>
> Terms of the proposal *to* IBM would include a salary for Roger and
> production costs for a few thousand CD sets. If it flies, there could
> be follow on development.
>
> That's it.
>
> Reminder, put up pages of documentation for new users. I have a list of
> topics at http://www.kiyoinc.com/hercdoc.html
>
> Drop me a note if there's something I should link to.
>
> Cory Hamasaki
>
> Community email addresses:
> Post message: hercules-390@yahoogroups.com
> Subscribe: hercules-390-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Unsubscribe: hercules-390-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> List owner: hercules-390-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Files and archives at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
>
> Get the latest version of Hercules from:
> http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
2:10 pm
Re: IBM Software
abaddon@...
May 18, 2001
--- In hercules-390@y..., "Volker Bandke" <vbandke@b...> wrote:
> Cory,
>
> one problem exists: The terms and Conditions for the PID:
>
> > The loaned software provided in this offering is for the
exclusive use
> > on the development system provided and cannot be copied, shared
or used
> > on another system without written permission from IBM.
>
> How can I have Hercules as a development platform, when I cannot
legally run
> OS/390 on it?
Volker,
Read Cory again:
> 3. We write a proposal *to* IBM to package and distribute an OS/390
> developer's CD set which includes Hercules/390, a Linux, and
OS/390.
> The CD set would be offered ONLY to IBM S/390 Partners in
Development
> and would be an entry level system below the NUMA-Q Flex and under
> similar terms.
Hercules is the 'development system provided' :-)
Actually I don't see this happening - IBM are already in bed with
Flex, I don't see them bundling Herc with anything... more likely
they will do what they've been threatening and allow PWD use on
easier terms, on *any* emulated solution.
The alternative, which I've heard more than one dark muttering about,
is that they might, just possibly might, be considering abandoning
OCO and taking the operating systems (back to) Open Source...!!!!!!!!
IF they can find a business case to do so... hell they could make a
good PR case for doing so... "CA etc can continue to stiff you, meter
usage, cycles, CPUs, all the rest of that game... we're giving up
that game, we're gonna make our money from applications and
service/support".
Back to the future my friends!
Mike
2:48 pm
Re: IBM Software
Cory Hamasaki
May 18, 2001
** Reply to note from Mike, Volker, et al. 18 May 2001 18:45:56 -0000
> Hercules is the 'development system provided' :-)
>
> Actually I don't see this happening - IBM are already in bed with
> Flex, I don't see them bundling Herc with anything... more likely
> they will do what they've been threatening and allow PWD use on
> easier terms, on *any* emulated solution.
That's not the road block. The Flex is a commercial product and has
more polish than Hercules, not to mention speed and corporate support.
This gives it a big advantage in capturing an IBM executive's
mind-space.
There are many reasons to write the proposal. Essentially, the
cash-flow would enable Roger to concentrate on Hercules and would fund
pressing the CDs.
The reason for the CDs is that, frankly, I don't know how the rest of
you manage to do the Hercules work and a day job as well. I know
several people who would experiment with Hercules and OS/390 if the bar
were a little lower. The CD set would allow a larger pool of folk to
get in on the action.
Do you realize how amazing and hard Hercules is?
First you need a running Linux system. Then you install and configurate
the emulator. Finally you install an IBM mainframe operating system and
IPL and run it.
When I read the list, I see CCW traces, sysgens, snips of C source from
the emulator, Linux install issues. Incredible.
> The alternative, which I've heard more than one dark muttering about,
> is that they might, just possibly might, be considering abandoning
> OCO and taking the operating systems (back to) Open Source...!!!!!!!!
That would be nice.
As for Volker's comment on OS/390's restrictions of usage, if I had a 24
bit K&R C compiler for S/370. I could port NXTract to MVS/370, test it
there, and distribute that binary. Developed and tested on Hercules.
Anyone know if there's a full C compiler for MVS?
I know a fellow who wrote an MVS system monitor, Exhibit/Trace. I think
he has a few users but his product is a part-time effort at best. He
might really get into an S/390 on his desktop.
I suspect that there are a lot of half completed products out there. It
might be a stretch to spend $20,000 for a development environment but a
thousand dollars for hardware and a free CD set might do the trick.
Cory Hamasaki
10:35 pm
Re: IBM Software
warobbins@...
May 19, 2001
Looking at this from the perspective of IBM is absolutely necessary.
You MUST be able to convince IBM that there are tangible benefits to
them before anything will happen.
I was able to do that. I am one of the very few who has a legitimate
license from IBM for OS/390 running on Hercules. I may be the only
one.
I had already established an approved business case with the IBM
Commercial Developer program. The Commercial membership has additional
requirements beyond just signing up for the Partners in Development
Program.
At the time, I couldn't afford their development platform package. I
needed the software. There was no way to get it without buying the
whole package.
I must have called or written to 50 different people in IBM about
this. Every single one of them couldn't or didn't offer any help. If
I've learned one thing from my earlier life as an IBM manager, it's
not to give up.
After about six months of this, I finally found an individual within
IBM who said "maybe". Another three months of negotiations and reviews
of the business case, and it finally got done.
My license is, of course, for the loaned software only. It's use is
very restricted. In my case, I get no support for OS/390 and no
updates. It doesn't mention Hercules, either. I am permitted to
acquire a 'third party emulator'. I must run it on IBM hardware.
The good news:
IBM knows about Hercules and its potential benefits to IBM. There
has been (and probably still are) ongoing discussions within IBM about
ways to accommodate these benefits.
IBM monitors this newsgroup. Top executives within IBM are aware of
most of the details. Many IBMers are avid Hercules users. Some have
contributed to the Hercules project.
I have actually heard the word 'hobbiest' in my discussions with
IBM. Ideas to provide software for students and educational
institutions have been discussed.
The bad news:
IBM has no choice but to be very careful in managing their assets.
Given that, there isn't much reason for any IBM executive to devote a
lot of effort in making this happen. There is a substantial amount of
risk that needs to be addressed and it is very difficult to quantify
real benefits that justify the effort. Other opportunities are more
attractive.
My opinion:
I really don't have a clue what IBM may or may not do. Nothing will
happen without a business case. Hercules users, individually or
otherwise, can help IBM build that business case. Things that could or
might happen are not helpful. My efforts neither helped nor hurt
Hercules. Now that IBM has blessed their new development package and
it has been VERY successful, IBM executives are pleased. Emulation has
been embraced by real IBM customers and developers. That is good
news for Hercules.
The FSI emulator was chosen mostly because IBM could negotiate an
agreement that the product would be supported. IBM insists on
being able to support their products. If they include software in a
product, it must be supported as well. It's obvious that Hercules is
and will be supported, but it doesn't have enough critical mass. Linux
is different. IBM has embraced it and has built additional internal
support resources.
Hercules addresses a different audience and the 'market' is
different from IBM's traditional focus.
Persistence and creativity can work with IBM.
I mention Hercules to IBM people every chance I get. I can't hurt.
G.
8:01 pm
Re: IBM Software
phil@...
May 21, 2001
--- In hercules-390@y..., warobbins@m... wrote:
> I am one of the very few who has a legitimate
> license from IBM for OS/390 running on Hercules. I may be the only
> one.
Interesting. So IBM has no issue with the use of its intellectual
property - as is essential to get OS/390 to run - in Hercules.
That surprises me in as much as Hercules has no single 'owner' - I
wonder how they handle the potential of intellectual property leakage
with single entity against which they can enforce?
But as you said - you DON'T in fact have a license to run under
Hercules, since your license doesn't mention Hercules. Whether or
not you are in breach of IBM's intellectual property rights with
Hercules is another issue and totally separate from the OS/390
license issue.
> The FSI emulator was chosen mostly because IBM could negotiate an
> agreement that the product would be supported. IBM insists on
> being able to support their products. If they include software in a
> product, it must be supported as well. It's obvious that Hercules
is
> and will be supported, but it doesn't have enough critical mass.
Whether it is a useful data point or not - IBM announced support on
the ex-Sequent NUMA-Q product. This support had already been
announced by Sequent (23 September 1998) before IBM bought the
company - so you _could_ say that IBM was merely confirming an older
action or continuing an older commitment.
There are some significant differentiators. Fundamental Software has
not only tackled the software issue, but also the hardware - they
have parallel channel cards for attaching peripherals (such as impact
printers and card punches in turn-around applications) and
communications hardware, with a statement of direction for ESCON.
Support of the software environment is all a 'playing' sysprog needs,
but in the real world you often find that smaller System/370 and
System/390 shops have stayed with the platform because of some such
peripheral requirement - often but not always unit record.
8:29 am
Re: IBM Software
Jay Maynard
May 21, 2001
Phil wrote:
>That surprises me in as much as Hercules has no single 'owner' - I
>wonder how they handle the potential of intellectual property leakage
>with NO single entity against which they can enforce?
Perhaps this is because they truly are holding to their policy of not
enforcing patents against open source users, as I posted almost a week ago?
9:01 pm
Re: IBM Software
phil@...
May 22, 2001
--- In hercules-390@y..., Jay Maynard <jmaynard@c...> wrote:
> Phil wrote:
>
> >That surprises me in as much as Hercules has no single 'owner' - I
> >wonder how they handle the potential of intellectual property
leakage
> >with NO single entity against which they can enforce?
>
> Perhaps this is because they truly are holding to their policy of
not
> enforcing patents against open source users, as I posted almost a
week ago?
Well, if that is indeed the case, I am extremely surprised. If a
commercial organisation decides to avail itself of the same
technology without compensating IBM for the use of its intellectual
property and IBM sues - what conclusions might a court come to seeing
that other use of the same intellectual property has been condoned
without comment?
As far as I can see the open source movement has its status only by
practice and in no way has any special status enshrined in law. It
seems to me that anyone downloading source code that implements a
technique patented by IBM and compiling it is in violation of that
patent.
7:22 am
Re: IBM Software
Jay Maynard
May 22, 2001
On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 07:22:17AM -0000, phil@...
wrote:
> Well, if that is indeed the case, I am extremely surprised. If a
> commercial organisation decides to avail itself of the same
> technology without compensating IBM for the use of its intellectual
> property and IBM sues - what conclusions might a court come to seeing
> that other use of the same intellectual property has been condoned
> without comment?
None. Patents, unlike copyrights, may be selectively enforced with no change
in status (at least, in the USA). One person's violation of a patent going
unchallenged does not in any way affect another's.
> As far as I can see the open source movement has its status only by
> practice and in no way has any special status enshrined in law. It
> seems to me that anyone downloading source code that implements a
> technique patented by IBM and compiling it is in violation of that
> patent.
This is technically true...but if IBM chooses not to pursue the violation,
that's that, and nobody has any say in the matter -- even if they also
violate that patent.
I've asked Bruce Perens to raise this issue at the patent summit. I don't
know what will come of it, but it seems to me that this is where the rubber
meets the road with IBM's announced policy.
Until IBM chooses to pursue any alleged violations of its patents by
Hercules, I'm not going to worry about it. If they choose not to pursue any
suchclaims, then it's simply not an issue, and spreading such accusations is
FUD.
12:05 pm
Copyright 2001