OK who messed with the redbook?

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Approved-By:  Mike Ross < mross666@HOTMAIL.COM>
Message-ID:  < F780c5fh6b6E48QhnH100004fd3@hotmail.com>
Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:15:37 +0000
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port < LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port < LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Mike Ross < mross666@hotmail.com>
Subject:      OK who messed with the redbook?

Some amusment over on the Hercules list - the 'Linux on S/390' Redbook,
SG244987, originally contained a chapter on running Linux on the Hercules
emulator. Not surprising - it's known to be used by quite a few folks inside
IBM.

As of (apparently) March 21st, the Redbook has been revised (without
incrementing the version number, contrary to normal IBM practice), and *all*
references to Hercules have been carefully expunged!

Anyone with a clue what's going on? Suspicious of rewriting history!

Mike

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

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Approved-By:  David Boyes <dboyes@SINENOMINE.NET>
Message-ID:  <F1F2B0484A1ED511904F08002BBDE57912B26D@ebola.sinenomine.net>
Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 11:47:52 -0400
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         David Boyes <dboyes@sinenomine.net>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  <F1F2B0484A1ED511904F08002BBDE57916869F@ebola.sinenomine.net>

> As of (apparently) March 21st, the Redbook has been revised (without
> incrementing the version number, contrary to normal IBM
> practice), and *all*
> references to Hercules have been carefully expunged!
> Anyone with a clue what's going on? Suspicious of rewriting history!

Pure speculation, but I would guess that Hercules has gotten far enough up
into IBM's radar in terms of licensing and intellectual property "borrowing"
that they may be compelled to do something about it, and publishing
information like this in a IBM-sponsored publication is tacitly encouraging
such activities  so the lawyers probably jumped on someone's head and had
the redbook quickly revised before some smart sea-lawyer grabbed onto it as
a copyright/intellectual property dilution.

The question now in *my* head is whether IBM will make the intelligent
choice: a hobbyist license or certification of Hercules for purchase of a
regular license, or the dumb choice: unleashing the lawyers and trying to
have Hercules eliminated via legal action. Let's hope it's the former -- it
would do wonders for the acceptance of the 390 as a viable application
architecture again.

-- db

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Approved-By:  Mike Ross <mross666@HOTMAIL.COM>
Message-ID:  <F100Y99EXxt5BBBVhye00006b66@hotmail.com>
Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:13:52 +0000
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Mike Ross <mross666@hotmail.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?

> > As of (apparently) March 21st, the Redbook has been revised (without
> > incrementing the version number, contrary to normal IBM
> > practice), and *all*
> > references to Hercules have been carefully expunged!
> > Anyone with a clue what's going on? Suspicious of rewriting history!
>
>Pure speculation, but I would guess that Hercules has gotten far enough up
>into IBM's radar in terms of licensing and intellectual property
>"borrowing"
>that they may be compelled to do something about it, and publishing
>information like this in a IBM-sponsored publication is tacitly encouraging
>such activities  so the lawyers probably jumped on someone's head and had
>the redbook quickly revised before some smart sea-lawyer grabbed onto it as
>a copyright/intellectual property dilution.

There might be something in that, but it strikes me very much as 'locking
the stable door' if that was the thought process which occured: the redbook
in question has been out for over six months. Pulling the Hercules
references now seems pointless. Also, if IBM had substantive IP concerns
about Herc (and there's no reason to suspect that they do), they would go
after Jay, Roger, and the lead developers, not just pull references from a
redbook!

>The question now in *my* head is whether IBM will make the intelligent
>choice: a hobbyist license or certification of Hercules for purchase of a
>regular license, or the dumb choice: unleashing the lawyers and trying to
>have Hercules eliminated via legal action. Let's hope it's the former -- it
>would do wonders for the acceptance of the 390 as a viable application
>architecture again.

That question has been in a lot of peoples heads for some time, and I can
think of very few people who would disagree with you. If they were foolish
enough to go for the latter option - use legal muscle to shut down a very
successful open-source operation (or try to shut it down; it would just go
overseas, it ain't going away!) - they would loose a hell of a lot of the
goodwill capital they've built up in the open-source community.

Mike

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

MIME-Version: 1.0
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Approved-By:  Jim.Melin@CO.HENNEPIN.MN.US
Message-ID:  < OF30F4597C.CBDFB629-ON86256B9C.0059DA68@co.hennepin.mn.us>
Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 11:22:09 -0500
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port < LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port < LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         James Melin < Jim.Melin@co.hennepin.mn.us>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?

If anyone feels like e-mailing me the PDF of the redbook with* the hercules
stuff in it, please do.

|---------+---------------------------->
|         |           Mike Ross        |
|         |                       |
|         |           Sent by: Linux on|
|         |           390 Port         |
|         |                    |
|         |                            |
|         |                            |
|         |           04/15/2002 11:13 |
|         |           AM               |
|         |           Please respond to|
|         |           Linux on 390 Port|
|         |                            |
|---------+---------------------------->
  >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
  |                                                                                                              |
  |       To:       LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU                                                                      |
  |       cc:                                                                                                    |
  |       Subject:  Re: OK who messed with the redbook?                                                          |
  >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

> > As of (apparently) March 21st, the Redbook has been revised (without
> > incrementing the version number, contrary to normal IBM
> > practice), and *all*
> > references to Hercules have been carefully expunged!
> > Anyone with a clue what's going on? Suspicious of rewriting history!
>
>Pure speculation, but I would guess that Hercules has gotten far enough up
>into IBM's radar in terms of licensing and intellectual property
>"borrowing"
>that they may be compelled to do something about it, and publishing
>information like this in a IBM-sponsored publication is tacitly
encouraging
>such activities  so the lawyers probably jumped on someone's head and had
>the redbook quickly revised before some smart sea-lawyer grabbed onto it
as
>a copyright/intellectual property dilution.

There might be something in that, but it strikes me very much as 'locking
the stable door' if that was the thought process which occured: the redbook
in question has been out for over six months. Pulling the Hercules
references now seems pointless. Also, if IBM had substantive IP concerns
about Herc (and there's no reason to suspect that they do), they would go
after Jay, Roger, and the lead developers, not just pull references from a
redbook!

>The question now in *my* head is whether IBM will make the intelligent
>choice: a hobbyist license or certification of Hercules for purchase of a
>regular license, or the dumb choice: unleashing the lawyers and trying to
>have Hercules eliminated via legal action. Let's hope it's the former --
it
>would do wonders for the acceptance of the 390 as a viable application
>architecture again.

That question has been in a lot of peoples heads for some time, and I can
think of very few people who would disagree with you. If they were foolish
enough to go for the latter option - use legal muscle to shut down a very
successful open-source operation (or try to shut it down; it would just go
overseas, it ain't going away!) - they would loose a hell of a lot of the
goodwill capital they've built up in the open-source community.

Mike

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

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Approved-By:  Greg Smith < rys@EPAIBM.RTPNC.EPA.GOV>
Message-ID:  <3CBB009E.1070909@trex.rtpnc.epa.gov>
Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:32:30 -0400
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port < LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port < LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Greg Smith < rys@epaibm.rtpnc.epa.gov>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?

James Melin wrote:

> If anyone feels like e-mailing me the PDF of the redbook with* the hercules
> stuff in it, please do.

Try ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/7.2/en/os/s390/docs/ 
or a related mirror site.

Greg Smith

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Approved-By:  "Post, Mark K" <mark.post@EDS.COM>
Message-ID:  <564DE4477544D411AD2C00508BDF0B6A0C9DD171@usahm018.exmi01.exch.eds.com>
Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:39:25 -0400
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         "Post, Mark K" <mark.post@eds.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?

James,

Feeling particularly like getting mail-bombed today?  :)  The book is around
5MB in size.  Multiply that by a few dozen well-meaning list subscribers...

Mark Post

-----Original Message-----
From: James Melin [mailto:Jim.Melin@co.hennepin.mn.us]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 12:22 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: OK who messed with the redbook?

If anyone feels like e-mailing me the PDF of the redbook with* the hercules
stuff in it, please do.

|---------+---------------------------->
|         |           Mike Ross        |
|         |           <mross666@hotmail|
|         |           .com>            |
|         |           Sent by: Linux on|
|         |           390 Port         |
|         |           <LINUX-390@VM.MAR|
|         |           IST.EDU>         |
|         |                            |
|         |                            |
|         |           04/15/2002 11:13 |
|         |           AM               |
|         |           Please respond to|
|         |           Linux on 390 Port|
|         |                            |
|---------+---------------------------->

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------|
  |
|
  |       To:       LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
|
  |       cc:
|
  |       Subject:  Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
|

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------|

> > As of (apparently) March 21st, the Redbook has been revised (without
> > incrementing the version number, contrary to normal IBM
> > practice), and *all*
> > references to Hercules have been carefully expunged!
> > Anyone with a clue what's going on? Suspicious of rewriting history!
>
>Pure speculation, but I would guess that Hercules has gotten far enough up
>into IBM's radar in terms of licensing and intellectual property
>"borrowing"
>that they may be compelled to do something about it, and publishing
>information like this in a IBM-sponsored publication is tacitly
encouraging
>such activities  so the lawyers probably jumped on someone's head and had
>the redbook quickly revised before some smart sea-lawyer grabbed onto it
as
>a copyright/intellectual property dilution.

There might be something in that, but it strikes me very much as 'locking
the stable door' if that was the thought process which occured: the redbook
in question has been out for over six months. Pulling the Hercules
references now seems pointless. Also, if IBM had substantive IP concerns
about Herc (and there's no reason to suspect that they do), they would go
after Jay, Roger, and the lead developers, not just pull references from a
redbook!

>The question now in *my* head is whether IBM will make the intelligent
>choice: a hobbyist license or certification of Hercules for purchase of a
>regular license, or the dumb choice: unleashing the lawyers and trying to
>have Hercules eliminated via legal action. Let's hope it's the former --
it
>would do wonders for the acceptance of the 390 as a viable application
>architecture again.

That question has been in a lot of peoples heads for some time, and I can
think of very few people who would disagree with you. If they were foolish
enough to go for the latter option - use legal muscle to shut down a very
successful open-source operation (or try to shut it down; it would just go
overseas, it ain't going away!) - they would loose a hell of a lot of the
goodwill capital they've built up in the open-source community.

Mike

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

References: <OF30F4597C.CBDFB629-ON86256B9C.0059DA68@co.hennepin.mn.us>
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Approved-By:  Stefan Gybas <sgybas@AVOIVE.TRUSTSEC.DE>
Message-ID:  <20020415163039.GA15459@avoive.trustsec.de>
Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:30:39 +0200
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Stefan Gybas <gybas@trustsec.de>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  <OF30F4597C.CBDFB629-ON86256B9C.0059DA68@co.hennepin.mn.us>

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 11:22:09AM -0500, James Melin wrote:

> If anyone feels like e-mailing me the PDF of the redbook with* the hercules
> stuff in it, please do.

You can still download the old version from
ftp://ftp.redhat.de/pub/s390/docs/sg244987.pdf 

Regards,
Stefan Gybas

References: < OF30F4597C.CBDFB629-ON86256B9C.0059DA68@co.hennepin.mn.us> <3CBB009E.1070909@trex.rtpnc.epa.gov>
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Approved-By:  Florian La Roche < laroche@REDHAT.COM>
Message-ID:  <20020415184646.A19933@dudweiler.stuttgart.redhat.com>
Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:46:46 +0200
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port < LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port < LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Florian La Roche < laroche@redhat.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  <3CBB009E.1070909@trex.rtpnc.epa.gov>; from rys@epaibm.rtpnc.epa.gov on Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 12:32:30PM -0400

On Mon, Apr 15, 2002 at 12:32:30PM -0400, Greg Smith wrote:
> James Melin wrote:
>
> > If anyone feels like e-mailing me the PDF of the redbook with* the hercules
> > stuff in it, please do.
>
> Try ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/7.2/en/os/s390/docs/ 
> or a related mirror site.

ftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/linux/rawhide/s390/utils/hercules/ also 
has sample config files and a recent cvs version of hercules, which has
really improved a real lot during the recent months.

A nearly complete install of Red Hat Linux takes about 5 1/2 hours for me
on a 1800 Mhz AMD machine. :-) Most applications work reasonable fast,
but I wouldn't recommend this for real development. Looking/testing/evaluation
should be ok with this.

cu,

Florian La Roche

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Approved-By:  "Post, Mark K" <mark.post@EDS.COM>
Message-ID:  <564DE4477544D411AD2C00508BDF0B6A0C9DD173@usahm018.exmi01.exch.eds.com>
Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:49:49 -0400
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         "Post, Mark K" <mark.post@eds.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?

I used the "review this redbook" link to tell them what I thought about the
stealth change.  I also mentioned that I hoped "my" redbook would not be the
subject of similar treatment in the future.

Mark Post

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Ross [mailto:mross666@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 11:16 AM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: OK who messed with the redbook?

Some amusment over on the Hercules list - the 'Linux on S/390' Redbook,
SG244987, originally contained a chapter on running Linux on the Hercules
emulator. Not surprising - it's known to be used by quite a few folks inside
IBM.

As of (apparently) March 21st, the Redbook has been revised (without
incrementing the version number, contrary to normal IBM practice), and *all*
references to Hercules have been carefully expunged!

Anyone with a clue what's going on? Suspicious of rewriting history!

Mike

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

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Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 12:02:51 -0500
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         James Melin <Jim.Melin@co.hennepin.mn.us>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
Already been bombed. Just now. So I got it.
Thanks for sending it - whomever that was.
 
 
 
|---------+---------------------------->
|         |           "Post, Mark K"   |
|         |           <mark.post@eds.co|
|         |           m>               |
|         |           Sent by: Linux on|
|         |           390 Port         |
|         |           <LINUX-390@VM.MAR|
|         |           IST.EDU>         |
|         |                            |
|         |                            |
|         |           04/15/2002 11:39 |
|         |           AM               |
|         |           Please respond to|
|         |           Linux on 390 Port|
|         |                            |
|---------+---------------------------->
  >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
  |                                                                                                              |
  |       To:       LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU                                                                      |
  |       cc:                                                                                                    |
  |       Subject:  Re: OK who messed with the redbook?                                                          |
  >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
 
 
 
 
James,
 
Feeling particularly like getting mail-bombed today?  :)  The book is
around
5MB in size.  Multiply that by a few dozen well-meaning list subscribers...
 
Mark Post
 
-----Original Message-----
From: James Melin [mailto:Jim.Melin@co.hennepin.mn.us]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 12:22 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
 
If anyone feels like e-mailing me the PDF of the redbook with* the hercules
stuff in it, please do.
 
 
 
|---------+---------------------------->
|         |           Mike Ross        |
|         |           <mross666@hotmail|
|         |           .com>            |
|         |           Sent by: Linux on|
|         |           390 Port         |
|         |           <LINUX-390@VM.MAR|
|         |           IST.EDU>         |
|         |                            |
|         |                            |
|         |           04/15/2002 11:13 |
|         |           AM               |
|         |           Please respond to|
|         |           Linux on 390 Port|
|         |                            |
|---------+---------------------------->
 
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------|
  |
|
  |       To:       LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
|
  |       cc:
|
  |       Subject:  Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
|
 
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------|
 
 
 
 
> > As of (apparently) March 21st, the Redbook has been revised (without
> > incrementing the version number, contrary to normal IBM
> > practice), and *all*
> > references to Hercules have been carefully expunged!
> > Anyone with a clue what's going on? Suspicious of rewriting history!
>
>Pure speculation, but I would guess that Hercules has gotten far enough up
>into IBM's radar in terms of licensing and intellectual property
>"borrowing"
>that they may be compelled to do something about it, and publishing
>information like this in a IBM-sponsored publication is tacitly
encouraging
>such activities  so the lawyers probably jumped on someone's head and had
>the redbook quickly revised before some smart sea-lawyer grabbed onto it
as
>a copyright/intellectual property dilution.
 
There might be something in that, but it strikes me very much as 'locking
the stable door' if that was the thought process which occured: the redbook
in question has been out for over six months. Pulling the Hercules
references now seems pointless. Also, if IBM had substantive IP concerns
about Herc (and there's no reason to suspect that they do), they would go
after Jay, Roger, and the lead developers, not just pull references from a
redbook!
 
>The question now in *my* head is whether IBM will make the intelligent
>choice: a hobbyist license or certification of Hercules for purchase of a
>regular license, or the dumb choice: unleashing the lawyers and trying to
>have Hercules eliminated via legal action. Let's hope it's the former --
it
>would do wonders for the acceptance of the 390 as a viable application
>architecture again.
 
That question has been in a lot of peoples heads for some time, and I can
think of very few people who would disagree with you. If they were foolish
enough to go for the latter option - use legal muscle to shut down a very
successful open-source operation (or try to shut it down; it would just go
overseas, it ain't going away!) - they would loose a hell of a lot of the
goodwill capital they've built up in the open-source community.
 
Mike
 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Phil Payne <Linux@isham-research.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
> Some amusment over on the Hercules list - the 'Linux on S/390' Redbook,
> SG244987, originally contained a chapter on running Linux on the Hercules
> emulator. Not surprising - it's known to be used by quite a few folks inside
> IBM.
 
It was, certainly.  Is it still?
 
> As of (apparently) March 21st, the Redbook has been revised (without
> incrementing the version number, contrary to normal IBM practice), and *all*
> references to Hercules have been carefully expunged!
 
Clearing the decks for  a 'Cease and Desist'.  IBM can hardly issue one if some of its own
documentation seems to sanction Hercules.  It's come a bit late, too - back in Autumn I posted
that I expected it in mid-February, but I guess lawyers get paid by the hour.
 
Biggest amusement on the Hercules lists at the moment is Phil Roberts trying to get me banned
from the FLEX-ES list for posting a link to some obscenties.  The Hercules crowd are big on
censorship of dissenting viewpoints.  He doesn't appear to realise that the original was not
only written by one of his Hercules cronies, but it's still in the Hercules archives.
 
Physician heal thyself.
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/message/16259 is the original.  Tells you more 
about the Hercules effort in one post than a year of reading would do.
 
--
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.com 
  +44 7785 302 803
  +49 173 6242039

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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         David Boyes <dboyes@sinenomine.net>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  <F1F2B0484A1ED511904F08002BBDE5791686B7@ebola.sinenomine.net>
 
> There might be something in that, but it strikes me very much
> as 'locking
> the stable door' if that was the thought process which
> occured: the redbook
> in question has been out for over six months. Pulling the Hercules
> references now seems pointless. Also, if IBM had substantive
> IP concerns
> about Herc (and there's no reason to suspect that they do),
> they would go
> after Jay, Roger, and the lead developers, not just pull
> references from a
> redbook!
 
True, but remember that we're dealing with lawyers here, who have a really
eccentric viewpoint of How Things Work and What's Important.
 
If the goal is for IBM to protect the 390 intellectual property, they have
to be "vigilant and/or diligent" in pursuing and enforcing copyright and
usage of same. If they let this slide, then some other smart lawyer type
*might* be able to demonstrate to the satisfaction of another lawyer type
that they haven't been pursuing it appropriately, and IBM would lose the
protection of copyright law for the S/390 intellectual property.  This falls
under the heading of A Very Bad Thing for corporate lawyer types -- consider
the price paid by the folks at General Mills when they let the Jell-O(tm)
trademark fall into the public domain. Thus, they can't be seen to allow
such references to become "genericized" or risk losing the legal protection
of the information.
 
 
> That question has been in a lot of peoples heads for some
> time, and I can
> think of very few people who would disagree with you. If they
> were foolish
> enough to go for the latter option - use legal muscle to shut
> down a very
> successful open-source operation (or try to shut it down; it
> would just go
> overseas, it ain't going away!) - they would loose a hell of
> a lot of the
> goodwill capital they've built up in the open-source community.
 
Yep. Thus, I think, the quiet approach -- don't ask, don't tell, don't
promote, don't persecute...unless the Hercules guys do something so
egregiously stupid in public that IBM can't possibly ignore them any longer.
I think Jay, et al are smarter than that, but then again, I've been wrong
before on the open source community.
 
-- db

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Approved-By:  Mike Ross <mross666@HOTMAIL.COM>
Message-ID:  <F47sV5nMUiTxdBftzWb00006c88@hotmail.com>
Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:51:04 +0000
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Mike Ross <mross666@hotmail.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
> > Some amusment over on the Hercules list - the 'Linux on S/390' Redbook,
> > SG244987, originally contained a chapter on running Linux on the
>Hercules
> > emulator. Not surprising - it's known to be used by quite a few folks
>inside
> > IBM.
>
>It was, certainly.  Is it still?
 
I've no idea - but no reason to believe it isn't. I've heard recent
anecdotal evidence that it is - apparently it's rather hard for IBM insiders
to get hold of Flex. But this is just anecdote.
 
> > As of (apparently) March 21st, the Redbook has been revised (without
> > incrementing the version number, contrary to normal IBM practice), and
>*all*
> > references to Hercules have been carefully expunged!
>
>Clearing the decks for  a 'Cease and Desist'.  IBM can hardly issue one if
>some of its own
>documentation seems to sanction Hercules.  It's come a bit late, too - back
>in Autumn I posted
>that I expected it in mid-February, but I guess lawyers get paid by the
>hour.
 
I wondered what had become of that prediction. And, I suspect IBM lawyers
are on the payroll. As I said, it's locking the stable door six months too
late if that's the way they are thinking. Not to mention the use that IBM
has made/is making of Hercules internally. IANAL, but I can only imagine
these two facts would not look good if IBM ever *did* try to make a legal
case against Hercules.
 
>Biggest amusement on the Hercules lists at the moment is Phil Roberts
>trying to get me banned
>from the FLEX-ES list for posting a link to some obscenties.
 
It's not the biggest amusment IMHO, but I certainly agree with your
sentiments! (What? I just agreed with Phil Payne!) To be fair, he seems to
have a bigger issue with the FLEX-ES list itself, a 'commercial' list being
hosted on a university system, paid for by his tax dollars is the way he
puts it. And an offensive-sounding 'humour' list, ditto.
 
The Hercules crowd are big on
>censorship of dissenting viewpoints.
 
We're not big on folks who have no constructive comments, have never helped
develop or test, have repeated the same old complaint ad nauseum, and have
never even used the frigging software!
 
>He doesn't appear to realise that the original was not
>only written by one of his Hercules cronies, but it's still in the Hercules
>archives.
>
>Physician heal thyself.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/message/16259 is the original. 
>Tells you more
>about the Hercules effort in one post than a year of reading would do.
 
Tells you more about the ability of Phil Payne to provoke flames from
mild-mannered programmers. If you want to learn something about the Hercules
effort, use the software!
 
Phil, you got flamed. Most folks think you earned it, even if it was OTT.
Get over it.
 
Suggest we tread carefully to keep this on-topic for Linux... Hercules
issues, feel free to take them to email or hercules-advocacy list.
 
Mike
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

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Message-ID:  <01d401c1e4ad$1cc481c0$0900a8c0@transnote>
Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:40:51 +0200
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Phil Payne <Linux@isham-research.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
> As of (apparently) March 21st, the Redbook has been revised (without
> incrementing the version number, contrary to normal IBM practice), and *all*
> references to Hercules have been carefully expunged!
 
Roger Bowler's name has also been removed from the list of contributors.  It would be stranger
yet for that to happen without him being informed in advance.  Did they do that, and did they
give a reason?
 
--
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.com 
  +44 7785 302 803
  +49 173 6242039

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From:         Willem Konynenberg <w.f.konynenberg@chello.nl>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
Comments: cc: Mike Ross <mross666@hotmail.com>
In-Reply-To:  Your message of "Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:51:04 -0000." <F47sV5nMUiTxdBftzWb00006c88@hotmail.com>

"Mike Ross" wrote:
  [Phil Payne wrote:]
> >He doesn't appear to realise that the original was not
> >only written by one of his Hercules cronies, but it's still in the Hercules
> >archives.
> >
> >Physician heal thyself.
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/message/16259 is the original. 
> >Tells you more
> >about the Hercules effort in one post than a year of reading would do.
>
> Tells you more about the ability of Phil Payne to provoke flames from
> mild-mannered programmers. If you want to learn something about the Hercules
> effort, use the software!
>
> Phil, you got flamed. Most folks think you earned it, even if it was OTT.

It looks like Phil is getting himself quite a bit of mileage out of
that one flame, isn't he?  But then, he'd better, since he worked
long and hard to harvest it...

--
     Willem Konynenberg <w.f.konynenberg@chello.nl>

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Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 21:35:01 +0200
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Phil Payne <Linux@isham-research.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
> It looks like Phil is getting himself quite a bit of mileage out of
> that one flame, isn't he?  But then, he'd better, since he worked
> long and hard to harvest it...
 
The flame itself is of little interest.  It looks unoriginal - perhaps derived from one of the
classic flames stored away on Usenet - there are quite a few, many of them a lot better.
 
The interesting thing is that it's still in the archives of the Hercules discussion group on
Yahoo - a group under the control of Hercules' owners and otherwise quite heavily censured.
The poster has also not been admonished - rather, he has been congratulated.
 
Tell me again which company these people want to win over?
 
--
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.com 
  +44 7785 302 803
  +49 173 6242039

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From:         Henry Schaffer <hes@unity.ncsu.edu>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  <200204151859.g3FIxgv7020749@node16e88.a2000.nl> from "Willem Konynenberg" at Apr 15, 2002 08:59:42 PM
 
>> > ...
>> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/message/16259 is the original. 
>> >Tells you more
>> >about the Hercules effort in one post than a year of reading would do.
 
  FWIW - I tried to read it (and I have a Yahoo groups login,) but
apparently it's restricted to members of the Hercules-390 group.
 
--henry schaffer
> ...

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Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 21:50:41 +0200
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From:         Phil Payne <Linux@isham-research.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
> >> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/message/16259 is the original. 
> >> >Tells you more
> >> >about the Hercules effort in one post than a year of reading would do.
>
>   FWIW - I tried to read it (and I have a Yahoo groups login,) but
> apparently it's restricted to members of the Hercules-390 group.
 
This is going on far too long, considering this is the Linux group.  There's an unlinked copy
on my site at http://www.isham-research.com/insult.txt 
 
Be warned - it does contain obscenities.  This is not great prose.
 
--
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.com 
  +44 7785 302 803
  +49 173 6242039

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From:         Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  <F1F2B0484A1ED511904F08002BBDE57912B26F@ebola.sinenomine.net> from "David Boyes" at Apr 15, 2002 01:09:44 PM
 
        > If the goal is for IBM to protect the 390 intellectual property, they have
> to be "vigilant and/or diligent" in pursuing and enforcing copyright and
> usage of same. If they let this slide, then some other smart lawyer type
 
I know of no jurisdiction this is the actual case for copyright.
 
> the price paid by the folks at General Mills when they let the Jell-O(tm)
> trademark fall into the public domain. Thus, they can't be seen to allow
 
Trademark rules are quite different. A trademark identifies your product
so if you aren't making sure it identifies your product you are not doing
your job. If Hercules was called something like PC/390 then that might
be a real issue.
 
> egregiously stupid in public that IBM can't possibly ignore them any longer.
> I think Jay, et al are smarter than that, but then again, I've been wrong
> before on the open source community.
 
Well if IBM wants to discredit itself completely in the eyes of their
customers and the community I can't think of many more effective ways. When
the rest of us end up dropping S/390 patches and not testing compilation
of S/390 stuff because of lack of ability to test only they and their
customer base lose.
 
If they have sense they will do what Palm did with the emulator folks -
release a commercially supported and branded Hercules product to replace
their toy S/390 on a board product. That would also nicely solve the licensing
issue for non Linux OS's and generate IBM a tidy revenue stream as well as
letting them bury the expensive low volume hardware board.
 
Alan

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Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Phil Payne <Linux@isham-research.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Cox" <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
To: <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
 
>         > If the goal is for IBM to protect the 390 intellectual property, they have
> > to be "vigilant and/or diligent" in pursuing and enforcing copyright and
> > usage of same. If they let this slide, then some other smart lawyer type
>
> I know of no jurisdiction this is the actual case for copyright.
 
Copyright is not the major issue.
 
> > the price paid by the folks at General Mills when they let the Jell-O(tm)
> > trademark fall into the public domain. Thus, they can't be seen to allow
>
> Trademark rules are quite different. A trademark identifies your product
> so if you aren't making sure it identifies your product you are not doing
> your job. If Hercules was called something like PC/390 then that might
> be a real issue.
 
According to Jay's site the product is called: "The Hercules System/370, ESA/390, and
z/Architecture Emulator".
 
That's three IBM trademarks, right there.
 
> If they have sense they will do what Palm did with the emulator folks -
> release a commercially supported and branded Hercules product to replace
> their toy S/390 on a board product. That would also nicely solve the licensing
> issue for non Linux OS's and generate IBM a tidy revenue stream as well as
> letting them bury the expensive low volume hardware board.
 
Which they could also do (and have done once before) with FLEX-ES.
 
--
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.com 
  +44 7785 302 803
  +49 173 6242039

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Approved-By:  Mike Ross <mross666@HOTMAIL.COM>
Message-ID:  <F240q7GtHoOJrK05oRv00014718@hotmail.com>
Date:         Mon, 15 Apr 2002 23:15:50 +0000
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Mike Ross <mross666@hotmail.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
snip..
>According to Jay's site the product is called: "The Hercules System/370,
>ESA/390, and
>z/Architecture Emulator".
>
>That's three IBM trademarks, right there.
 
No, that's the *title* of the *page* Phil! It tells you what the page is
about (Hercules) and what that is (it's a System/370, ESA/390, and
z/Architecture Emulator).
 
Then it gives more detail:
 
'Hercules is an open source software implementation of the mainframe
System/370 and ESA/390 architectures, in addition to the new 64-bit
z/Architecture. Hercules runs under Linux, Windows 98, Windows NT, and
Windows 2000.'
 
The software is called Hercules, Phil!
 
And just to prove we're not taking the piss, we respect the trademarks with
the standard disclaimer at the bottom of the page:
 
'IBM, System/370, ESA/390, and z/Architecture are trademarks or registered
trademarks of IBM Corporation. Other product names mentioned
here are trademarks of other companies.'
 
Sorry Phil, clean miss. I won't allow misinformation, even off-topic, to
stand uncorrected.
 
Mike
 
_________________________________________________________________
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         John Summerfield <summer@os2.ami.com.au>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  Your message of "Mon, 15 Apr 2002 19:04:35 +0200." <014501c1e49f$a77ffb40$0900a8c0@transnote>
 
Linux@isham-research.com said:
>  Clearing the decks for  a 'Cease and Desist'.  IBM can hardly issue
> one if some of its own documentation seems to sanction Hercules.  It's
> come a bit late, too - back in Autumn I posted that I expected it in
> mid-February, but I guess lawyers get paid by the hour.
 
 
IBM can hardly pretend it didn't publish the material when so many (me
included) can find a copy with only a few seconds work.
 
 
--
Cheers
John Summerfield
 
Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/ 
 
Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my
disposition.
 
==============================
If you don't like being told you're wrong,
        be right!

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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         John Summerfield <summer@os2.ami.com.au>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  Your message of "Mon, 15 Apr 2002 21:50:41 +0200." <023001c1e4b6$de323e20$0900a8c0@transnote>
 
> > >> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/message/16259 is the origina 
> l.
> > >> >Tells you more
> > >> >about the Hercules effort in one post than a year of reading would do.
> >
> >   FWIW - I tried to read it (and I have a Yahoo groups login,) but
> > apparently it's restricted to members of the Hercules-390 group.
>
> This is going on far too long, considering this is the Linux group.  There's
> an unlinked copy
> on my site at http://www.isham-research.com/insult.txt 
 
 
If that's what I think it is, you have to be pretty silly to be proud
of having earned it.
 
I thought Fish's outburst hilarious. I'm surprised he's not been taken
up by the BBC.
 
 
 
--
Cheers
John Summerfield
 
Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/ 
 
Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my
disposition.
 
==============================
If you don't like being told you're wrong,
        be right!

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Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         John Summerfield <summer@os2.ami.com.au>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  Your message of "Mon, 15 Apr 2002 11:47:52 -0400." <F1F2B0484A1ED511904F08002BBDE57912B26D@ebola.sinenomine.net>
 
> > As of (apparently) March 21st, the Redbook has been revised (without
> > incrementing the version number, contrary to normal IBM
> > practice), and *all*
> > references to Hercules have been carefully expunged!
> > Anyone with a clue what's going on? Suspicious of rewriting history!
>
> Pure speculation, but I would guess that Hercules has gotten far enough up
> into IBM's radar in terms of licensing and intellectual property "borrowing"
> that they may be compelled to do something about it, and publishing
> information like this in a IBM-sponsored publication is tacitly encouraging
> such activities  so the lawyers probably jumped on someone's head and had
> the redbook quickly revised before some smart sea-lawyer grabbed onto it as
> a copyright/intellectual property dilution.
>
> The question now in *my* head is whether IBM will make the intelligent
> choice: a hobbyist license or certification of Hercules for purchase of a
> regular license, or the dumb choice: unleashing the lawyers and trying to
> have Hercules eliminated via legal action. Let's hope it's the former -- it
> would do wonders for the acceptance of the 390 as a viable application
> architecture again.
 
 
 
I plan on going into business shortly, and if I think there are some
mainframe users in the area I plan on putting up S/390 or zSeries Linux
up on Hercules as a demo.
 
Certainly I don't want IBM pissing in my patch.
 
 
 
 
 
--
Cheers
John Summerfield
 
Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/ 
 
Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my
disposition.
 
==============================
If you don't like being told you're wrong,
        be right!

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Approved-By:  Craig Vernon <cvernon@AU1.IBM.COM>
Message-ID:  <OF51F58DD6.6CCDC0E2-ONCA256B9D.001873B3@au.ibm.com>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:44:30 +1000
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Craig Vernon <cvernon@au1.ibm.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
Please no more speculation on this nonsense. You are all starting to get
suspicious of IBM based on some groundless speculation. It could be that
someone that looks after the publication went to the funny farm and the guy
that took over left the chapter out. Based on my idle speculation I don't
think it is a good enough reason to become suspicious of going near the
pubication business for fear of insanity! Its like McArthyism! I'd better
go now!
 
Regards, Craig
 
+61-2-9354-7283 tel +61-2-9354-7797 fax
Craig Vernon B.App.Sc. LL.B.
IBM Support Centre FB41
55 Coonara Ave
West Pennant Hills 2125
Sydney NSW Australia
Visit us at http://www.ibm.com/services/au/its 
 
"You can not find a solution using the same thinking that created the
problem." - Albert EInstein
 
If received in error please delete and notify the sender immediately. No
other use permitted. Neither confidentiality, privilege nor copyright
waived.
 
 
 
                      John Summerfield
                      <summer@os2.ami.c        To:       LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
                      om.au>                   cc:
                      Sent by: Linux on        Subject:  Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
                      390 Port
                      <LINUX-390@VM.MAR
                      IST.EDU>
 
 
                      16/04/2002 09:01
                      AM
                      Please respond to
                      Linux on 390 Port
 
 
 
 
 
> > As of (apparently) March 21st, the Redbook has been revised (without
> > incrementing the version number, contrary to normal IBM
> > practice), and *all*
> > references to Hercules have been carefully expunged!
> > Anyone with a clue what's going on? Suspicious of rewriting history!
>
> Pure speculation, but I would guess that Hercules has gotten far enough
up
> into IBM's radar in terms of licensing and intellectual property
"borrowing"
> that they may be compelled to do something about it, and publishing
> information like this in a IBM-sponsored publication is tacitly
encouraging
> such activities  so the lawyers probably jumped on someone's head and had
> the redbook quickly revised before some smart sea-lawyer grabbed onto it
as
> a copyright/intellectual property dilution.
>
> The question now in *my* head is whether IBM will make the intelligent
> choice: a hobbyist license or certification of Hercules for purchase of a
> regular license, or the dumb choice: unleashing the lawyers and trying to
> have Hercules eliminated via legal action. Let's hope it's the former --
it
> would do wonders for the acceptance of the 390 as a viable application
> architecture again.
 
 
 
I plan on going into business shortly, and if I think there are some
mainframe users in the area I plan on putting up S/390 or zSeries Linux
up on Hercules as a demo.
 
Certainly I don't want IBM pissing in my patch.
 
 
 
 
 
--
Cheers
John Summerfield
 
Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/ 
 
Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my
disposition.
 
==============================
If you don't like being told you're wrong,
        be right!

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Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 08:23:53 -0400
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From:         Michael MacIsaac < mikemac@us.ibm.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
Hi list,
 
I speak for myself and not for IBM.
 
On this subject, Neale Ferguson's quote comes to mind which
goes something like this:
 
  "Any sufficiently large organization is a microcosm of society."
 
The chapter was not accidentally left out.  It is rare for a redbook
to change this way.  The powers that be whom effected this change
come from a different part of IBM society.  They have a different
viewpoint.  They perhaps don't understand the significance of
the open source revolution.  I'm sure they might comment "perhaps
you don't understand the value of IBM intellectual property". On the
topic of the significance of open source, I am often amazed at how
far and how fast IBM has come. I attribute a lot of the change to
Dr. Irving Wladowsky-Berger's vision and position (but I digress).
 
A couple of points from this discussion, at opposite ends of the
spectrum, are poignant:
 
> As of (apparently) March 21st, the Redbook has been revised (without
> incrementing the version number, contrary to normal IBM practice)
 
Point taken, clearly.  There should not be two different books with
the same order number. I have suggested that we admit the change
(though I shouldn't say "we" as I no longer work for the ITSO). The
updated redbook should have a new order number SG24-4987-01.
It should have a "Summary of changes" section.  What should be the
wording for the summary of changes?  The template goes like this:
 
    "This revision reflects the addition, deletion, or modification
     of new and changed information described below.
 
    New information
     -) None
    Changed information
     -) ???
 
This bullet will be difficult to word, but it should be worded.
How about a bullet such as "A topic was removed because IBM paid
for this book to be written and is our prerogative to do so".
(I have not studied the new GNU documentation license, but it
would be interesting to see if this situation is addressed.)
Remember, redbooks are a great source of free  information and
a lot of hard work goes into them.
 
But should it have been removed? I was asked my opinion of whether
the topic should be removed from the redbook and was clearly against
it for many of the reasons cited in this discussion.  But this point nails
it
on the head:
 
> When the rest of us end up dropping S/390 patches and not
> testing compilation of S/390 stuff because of lack of ability
> to test only they and their customer base lose.
 
This needs to be understood by the IBMers who effected the change.
Many of us within IBM are spoiled by being awash in MIPS. The value
of Linux on zSeries is the quality of the hardware, the firmware, z/VM,
and the diligence of what "production" means. With Hercules running
on a PC, the quality of the hardware and firmware is replaced.  As I
understand it, z/VM cannot be licensed to run on Hercules. Those
who understand the diligence of production services will probably not
be recommending Hercules.
 
So what is left?  An apparently excellent emulator that allows those
open source developers with an "itch to scratch", to come to the S/390
table and contribute.  This is the value of Hercules *as I see it*, but
again, I come from the open source neighborhood of the IBM society.
 
          -Mike MacIsaac,  IBM   mikemac@us.ibm.com   (845) 433-7061

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Approved-By:  Phil Payne <Linux@ISHAM-RESEARCH.COM>
Message-ID:  <01d801c1e542$f4de5be0$0900a8c0@transnote>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:33:36 +0200
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Phil Payne <Linux@isham-research.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
> The chapter was not accidentally left out.  It is rare for a redbook
> to change this way.  The powers that be whom effected this change
> come from a different part of IBM society.  They have a different
> viewpoint.  They perhaps don't understand the significance of
> the open source revolution.
 
They perhaps _do_ understand that 38% of IBM's net income is from proprietary software - which
has a gross margin of over 86%.  However elegant and intellectually satisfying the open source
concept is, the jury's still out on when (or whenever) it's going to start paying the rent on
Armonk.
 
--
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.com 
  +44 7785 302 803
  +49 173 6242039

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Approved-By:  Mike Ross <mross666@HOTMAIL.COM>
Message-ID:  <F12iRF5QrlTas9vLxvz0000ce4b@hotmail.com>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 15:35:01 +0000
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Mike Ross <mross666@hotmail.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
>Hi list,
>
>I speak for myself and not for IBM.
 
Understood... and *thank you* for speaking, and shedding some light; we
already had sufficient heat. I'll snip a bit and make some points:
 
>The chapter was not accidentally left out.  It is rare for a redbook
>to change this way.  The powers that be whom effected this change
>come from a different part of IBM society.  They have a different
>viewpoint.
 
I'll say. The first version clearly acknowledged the contribution made by
Roger and the Hercules team - not directly to the writing, but recognising
how helpful Hercules had been. Perhaps that contribution shouldn't have been
acknowledged; who am I to say? If it had never been there we wouldn't miss
it. To put it in for six months then gratuitously and sneakily remove every
trace of it shows a *nasty* revisionist tendancy - and gives Roger and the
Hercules team a very public slap in the face, IMHO. Sure IBM supports the
principle of open-source - when it suits them. As far as I'm concerned,
they're on probation as from now.
 
<snip some fair points; it would be slightly less offensive if they openly
acknowledged the change, as suggested>
 
>But should it have been removed? I was asked my opinion of whether
>the topic should be removed from the redbook and was clearly against
>it for many of the reasons cited in this discussion.
 
Can I ask you to state publically and explicitly: what were the reasons
given for the removal, by those who supported this action? We can surmise
what they might be, but it would be interesting to hear...
 
<snip the rest; fair comments all>
 
Mike
 
 
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

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Approved-By:  Michael MacIsaac <mikemac@US.IBM.COM>
Message-ID:  <OFA8A0DC99.1441F723-ON85256B9D.005D8DC4@pok.ibm.com>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:06:42 -0400
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Michael MacIsaac <mikemac@us.ibm.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
Hi list,
 
I got the reply from the ITSO; the book is not going to be renumbered to
-01
as the changes do not meet the criteria:
 
    > For all - "normal" practice that is documented is that if 10%+
changes it is a
    > new version #. Otherwise not so. Remember that our site shows a last
revised
    > date and there is also a Summary of Changes - if you choose.
 
And whomever made the changed did not choose to include a
Summary of Changes.
 
          -Mike MacIsaac,  IBM   mikemac@us.ibm.com   (845) 433-7061

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Approved-By:  Michael MacIsaac <mikemac@US.IBM.COM>
Message-ID:  <OFCEC8CB36.B00FE041-ON85256B9D.005E2A5D@pok.ibm.com>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:38:54 -0400
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Michael MacIsaac <mikemac@us.ibm.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
> Can I ask you to state publically and explicitly: what were the reasons
> given for the removal, by those who supported this action? We can surmise
> what they might be, but it would be interesting to hear...
 
No. I don't recall details, and I've stuck my neck out as far as I care.
 
Let's move on and get back to the fun stuff (gotta get this hsi0 working
again).
 
          -Mike MacIsaac,  IBM   mikemac@us.ibm.com   (845) 433-7061

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Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:00:43 -0400
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         "Peter Webb, Toronto Transit Commission" <Peter.Webb@ttc.ca>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
The contact address for redbooks is mailto:redbooks@us.ibm.com. If you are 
unhappy about this change, e-mail them.
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael MacIsaac [SMTP:mikemac@us.ibm.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 1:39 PM
> To:   LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
> Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
>
> > Can I ask you to state publically and explicitly: what were the reasons
> > given for the removal, by those who supported this action? We can
> surmise
> > what they might be, but it would be interesting to hear...
>
> No. I don't recall details, and I've stuck my neck out as far as I care.
>
> Let's move on and get back to the fun stuff (gotta get this hsi0 working
> again).
>
>           -Mike MacIsaac,  IBM   mikemac@us.ibm.com   (845) 433-7061

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Approved-By:  Phil Payne <Linux@ISHAM-RESEARCH.COM>
Message-ID:  <039401c1e570$a5539260$0900a8c0@transnote>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 20:00:25 +0200
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Phil Payne <Linux@isham-research.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
> I'll say. The first version clearly acknowledged the contribution made by
> Roger and the Hercules team - not directly to the writing, but recognising
> how helpful Hercules had been. Perhaps that contribution shouldn't have been
> acknowledged; who am I to say? If it had never been there we wouldn't miss
> it. To put it in for six months then gratuitously and sneakily remove every
> trace of it shows a *nasty* revisionist tendancy - and gives Roger and the
> Hercules team a very public slap in the face, IMHO. Sure IBM supports the
> principle of open-source - when it suits them. As far as I'm concerned,
> they're on probation as from now.
 
OK, I've now been through it.
 
As well as the missing chapter, a reference to Hercules in 13.1 (now 12.1, of course) has also
been removed, and four URLs have disappeared from Appendix G4.  Two were Jay's and are still
accessible - the other two are not.
 
http://www.snipix.freeserve.co.uk/hercules.htm gives a DNS error.  Frankly, I'm not 
surprised - I too have shut a Freeserve site in the last six months.  I left a redirector up,
but not everyone knows how to do that.
 
http://penguinvm.princeton.edu/hercules/linux.aws.gz throws up a 404, but some chopping of the 
URL eventually produces a redirect to linuxvm.org
 
Overall it's a complete job - there were 69 references to Hercules in the old version, and
there are none at all in the new one.
 
--
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.com 
  +44 7785 302 803
  +49 173 6242039

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Approved-By:  Phil Payne <Linux@ISHAM-RESEARCH.COM>
Message-ID:  <03d701c1e573$5ff55d40$0900a8c0@transnote>
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Phil Payne <Linux@isham-research.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
You'll be glad to know IBM is not infallible - they missed one.  The URL
http://www.snipix.freeserve.co.uk/hercinst.html survives near the top of page 509. 
 
The URL is dead.  Nothing sinister, though - as I surmised, the owners have simply dumped
Freeserve (very sensible of them) and gone to
http://liberti.dhs.org/public/computing/linux/emulators/hercules/hercinst.htm 
 
--
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.com 
  +44 7785 302 803
  +49 173 6242039

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Approved-By:  "Post, Mark K" <mark.post@EDS.COM>
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Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:27:55 -0400
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         "Post, Mark K" <mark.post@eds.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
Who in the world ever thought they _were_?
 
Mark Post
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Payne [mailto:Linux@isham-research.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 2:20 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
 
You'll be glad to know IBM is not infallible - they missed one.

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Approved-By:  Hylton Tom P <Tom.P.Hylton@IRS.GOV>
Message-ID:  <A28E4094333AD4118B540004ACE534300ACE8AA0@mtb0120xf01.mcc.irs.gov>
Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 16:37:55 -0400
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Hylton Tom P <Tom.P.Hylton@irs.gov>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
Contained within that Redbook (and all others I'd assume) is the following
section that contains alternatives for
contacting them:
 
<SNIP>
Comments welcome
Your comments are important to us!
We want our Redbooks to be as helpful as possible. Please send us your
comments about this or other Redbooks in one of the following ways:
* Fax the evaluation form found in "IBM Redbooks review" on page 541 to
the fax number shown on the form.
* Use the online evaluation form found at http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/ 
* Send your comments in an Internet note to redbooks@us.ibm.com
<SNIP>
 
 
Note: the online form they refer to would be:
http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/Evaluation?OpenForm&Form=SG24-4 
987-00&ISBN=0738419141&
 
tom
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Webb, Toronto Transit Commission [mailto:Peter.Webb@ttc.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 2:01 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
 
The contact address for redbooks is mailto:redbooks@us.ibm.com. If you are 
unhappy about this change, e-mail them.
 
<SNIP>

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From:         Richard Higson <richard.higson@gt.owl.de>
Organization: is NOT one of my stronger abilities.
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  <OFCEC8CB36.B00FE041-ON85256B9D.005E2A5D@pok.ibm.com>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 01:38:54PM -0400, Michael MacIsaac wrote:
> Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:38:54 -0400
> From: Michael MacIsaac <mikemac@us.ibm.com>
> Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
> To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
>
> > Can I ask you to state publically and explicitly: what were the reasons
> > given for the removal, by those who supported this action? We can surmise
> > what they might be, but it would be interesting to hear...
>
> No. I don't recall details, and I've stuck my neck out as far as I care.
Thank you Mike, for having the integrity to 'stick your neck out' as far
as you have. It is a pity that the IBM people who asked your opinion
didn't want to hear your answer.

> Let's move on and get back to the fun stuff (gotta get this hsi0 working
> again).
>           -Mike MacIsaac,  IBM   mikemac@us.ibm.com   (845) 433-7061

Yep, back to work/play/whatever.

I had promised an IBM guy that I'd help him prepare a CD he could give
to his customers so that they could just run Linux/390 on their PC's;
just like the Demo shown at the GSE (Guide Share Europe) Linux Working
Group meeting in the Schoeneicherstrasse 220 in Boeblingen.

Of course, I have an ulterior motive;
I was so impressed with the one slide that showed the RedHat, SuSE, Turbo
and Debian Logo's that I thought that a CD containing an IPL-able
mini-system from each distributor would be quite neat.

Anybody want to help me? I run Debian/390 here, and ThinkBlue/64,
but I'm not up to speed on SuSE, RedHat or Turbo.

Richard - "This letter hasn't been censored ... yet"
--
It turns out that treating software as property
makes bad software. ===Moglen===
Have a nice day ;-) Richard Higson mailto:richard.higson@gt.owl.de

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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.cx>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  <20020416205626.GA20633@glurp.gt.owl.de>; from richard.higson@gt.owl.de on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 10:56:26PM +0200

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 10:56:26PM +0200, Richard Higson wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 01:38:54PM -0400, Michael MacIsaac wrote:
> > No. I don't recall details, and I've stuck my neck out as far as I care.
> Thank you Mike, for having the integrity to 'stick your neck out' as far
> as you have. It is a pity that the IBM people who asked your opinion
> didn't want to hear your answer.

Seconded.

> Anybody want to help me? I run Debian/390 here, and ThinkBlue/64,
> but I'm not up to speed on SuSE, RedHat or Turbo.

I don't have Debian/390; I've got SuSE 7.0, but haven't installed it yet;
and I got a bit farther with Red Hat 7.2, but not complete: decompression
errors and complaints about not being able to find modules info. Details
sent to a couple of folks who'd offered assistance.

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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         "Post, Mark K" <mark.post@eds.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
Richard,
 
I've got a running Red Hat 7.2 (very minimal) system up.  What exactly would
you want from me?
 
Mark Post
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Higson [mailto:richard.higson@gt.owl.de]
Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 4:56 PM
To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
Subject: Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
 
-snip-
I had promised an IBM guy that I'd help him prepare a CD he could give
to his customers so that they could just run Linux/390 on their PC's;
just like the Demo shown at the GSE (Guide Share Europe) Linux Working
Group meeting in the Schoeneicherstrasse 220 in Boeblingen.
 
Of course, I have an ulterior motive;
I was so impressed with the one slide that showed the RedHat, SuSE, Turbo
and Debian Logo's that I thought that a CD containing an IPL-able
mini-system from each distributor would be quite neat.
 
Anybody want to help me? I run Debian/390 here, and ThinkBlue/64,
but I'm not up to speed on SuSE, RedHat or Turbo.
 
Richard - "This letter hasn't been censored ... yet"
--
It turns out that treating software as property
makes bad software. ===Moglen===
Have a nice day ;-) Richard Higson mailto:richard.higson@gt.owl.de

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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         John Summerfield <summer@os2.ami.com.au>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  Your message of "Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:33:36 +0200." <01d801c1e542$f4de5be0$0900a8c0@transnote>
 
> > The chapter was not accidentally left out.  It is rare for a redbook
> > to change this way.  The powers that be whom effected this change
> > come from a different part of IBM society.  They have a different
> > viewpoint.  They perhaps don't understand the significance of
> > the open source revolution.
>
> They perhaps _do_ understand that 38% of IBM's net income is from proprietary
>  software - which
> has a gross margin of over 86%.  However elegant and intellectually satisfyin
> g the open source
> concept is, the jury's still out on when (or whenever) it's going to start pa
> ying the rent on
> Armonk.
 
The mainframe software needs something to run on, and by offending OSS
developers IBM is making them at least a little wary of helping sell
IBM hardware.
 
What software does Linux replace? By and large Unix on other hardware
I'd think. From what I gather, if I buy a zSeries machine to run Linux
on, I'm also likely to buy z/VM and probably some other software too.
 
To sell me that zSeries, IBM needs all those OSS developers beavering
away and not costing them as much as a brass razoo.
 
 
 
--
Cheers
John Summerfield
 
Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/ 
 
Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my
disposition.
 
==============================
If you don't like being told you're wrong,
        be right!

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From:         John Summerfield <summer@os2.ami.com.au>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  Your message of "Tue, 16 Apr 2002 13:06:42 -0400." <OFA8A0DC99.1441F723-ON85256B9D.005D8DC4@pok.ibm.com>
 
> Hi list,
>
> I got the reply from the ITSO; the book is not going to be renumbered to
> -01
> as the changes do not meet the criteria:
>
>     > For all - "normal" practice that is documented is that if 10%+
> changes it is a
>     > new version #. Otherwise not so. Remember that our site shows a last
> revised
>     > date and there is also a Summary of Changes - if you choose.
>
> And whomever made the changed did not choose to include a
> Summary of Changes.
>
>           -Mike MacIsaac,  IBM   mikemac@us.ibm.com   (845) 433-7061
 
 
This is a feedback address:
  redbooks@us.ibm.com
 
 
--
Cheers
John Summerfield
 
Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/ 
 
Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my
disposition.
 
==============================
If you don't like being told you're wrong,
        be right!

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From:         Phil Payne <Linux@isham-research.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
> What software does Linux replace? By and large Unix on other hardware
> I'd think. From what I gather, if I buy a zSeries machine to run Linux
> on, I'm also likely to buy z/VM and probably some other software too.
 
Laudable in principle, but what are the results?  How many zSeries machines have been sold
solely to run Linux?  Is it three yet - out of 1,500 or so zSeries shipped?
 
> To sell me that zSeries, IBM needs all those OSS developers beavering
> away and not costing them as much as a brass razoo.
 
Linux is costing IBM money - there are IBMers developing for it and IBM has released open
source code.  To quote Irving Wladawsky-Berger: "IBMers are geeks bearing gifts".
 
I don't doubt that Linux has a great future.  I'm not sure it has a terrific present.
 
--
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.com 
  +44 7785 302 803
  +49 173 6242039

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From:         Alan Cox <alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  <051201c1e59a$7e195c00$0900a8c0@transnote> from "Phil Payne" at Apr 17, 2002 01:00:08 AM
 
> > on, I'm also likely to buy z/VM and probably some other software too.
>
> Laudable in principle, but what are the results?  How many zSeries machines have been sold
> solely to run Linux?  Is it three yet - out of 1,500 or so zSeries shipped?
 
How many shipped because Linux existed for S/390 - thats the important
question. Including the hard to quantify "cool factor" it gave the 390
instead of making everyone think of balding old farts who speak only JCL 8)
 
> > To sell me that zSeries, IBM needs all those OSS developers beavering
> > away and not costing them as much as a brass razoo.
>
> Linux is costing IBM money - there are IBMers developing for it and IBM has released open
> source code.  To quote Irving Wladawsky-Berger: "IBMers are geeks bearing gifts".
 
What are the costings.. Hercules costs them nothing, it may have cost them a
tiny number of license sales of their own emulation. That I doubt for
two reasons - #1 big ibm customers are going to lump it in with their large
IBM global happy budget[1] #2 nobody else would consider paying the quoted price
but would instead buy something else. It certainly hasn't cost them real
production sales. If an x86 box running an unsupported emulator is good enough
the S/390 sales guy has a very hard sell to make ...
 
Then what are the gains - more people doing S/390 build for testing and also
able to look at S/390 specific bugs in general open source code. More
application availability - without Hercules there would be no Mumps for
S/390 for example.
 
Alan
--
        First the west got slaves by raiding their nations
        Then the west got slaves by invading their nations
        Now the west gets slaves from unrepayable loans to their nations
        Next the west will get slaves from owning their ideas

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Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  <E16xcUY-00016T-00@the-village.bc.nu>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Alan Cox wrote:
> How many shipped because Linux existed for S/390 - thats the important
> question. Including the hard to quantify "cool factor" it gave the 390
> instead of making everyone think of balding old farts who speak only JCL 8)

Hey, not fair! I happen to know one MVS systems programmer who is a
balding 23 year old fart :)

- --
Mark Earnest
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Senior Systems Programmer
AIS-Infrastructure
Penn State University

Email: mxe20@psu.edu
Office Phone: 814-863-2064
Public Key - http://mearnest.oas.psu.edu/gpgkey.txt 

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From:         Richard Higson <richard.higson@gt.owl.de>
Organization: is NOT one of my stronger abilities.
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  <564DE4477544D411AD2C00508BDF0B6A0C9DD19F@usahm018.exmi01.exch.eds.com>

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 06:07:38PM -0400, Post, Mark K wrote:
> Date:         Tue, 16 Apr 2002 18:07:38 -0400
> From: "Post, Mark K" <mark.post@eds.com>
> Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
> To: LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
>
> Richard,
>
> I've got a running Red Hat 7.2 (very minimal) system up.  What exactly would
> you want from me?
>
> Mark Post

I want to do a sorta "Linux/390 sampler CD".
Ideally, you would choose which Linux flavour you want to play with
and then just IPL it. On your PC (Linux or Windows, at home or at work)

I think this would make it easier for the sysprog's to play with their
distro of choice on their pissy at home or work, without fear of
creating havoc on a system, or having to beg for access to the HMC.

In other words, MINDSHARE.

So, what I want is a single mini-disk for each distro, so that
we can get all distro's on a single CD, and then set it up to run
with "Volker's Tu{r|n}key Spezial".

For those of you who don't know "Volker's Turnkey Spezial",
take a look at http://www.cbttape.org/cdrom.htm 
and/or http://www.bsp-gmbh.com/hercules/ 

For the Linux people who don't know cbttape.org, check it out.
They started doing free software on tapes a long time before
any of us even knew that software could be open or free.

OK, here we go...
 For each of the distro's in
  Redhat, SuSE, Turbo, Debian, ThinkBlue/64 (Have I missed any?)

    I'd like a single bootable CCKD DASD Image about 1/5th of a CDROM
    large. (No need for a swap partition, a single SWAP should be OK)
    Standardised "HW" possibly similar to what I have for my Debian/390
      200     3390    DEB390-CCKD sf=DEB390-shadow_   nosyio
      201     3390    SWAP-CCKD   sf=SWAP-shadow_     nosyio
      A000    3088    CTCI (windows or Linux syntax, standardised IPADDR)
      A001    3088    CTCI
      ????    3505    ./rdr/whatever
      ????    3420    ./tape/whatever.TDF

    If we have enough room, I'd like to include a "boot_dir" containing
      ${distro}/boot/lpar_kernel
      ${distro}/boot/lpar_parmline
      ${distro}/boot/lpar_initrd
    which we could move to ${target_dir}${distro} and unzip the initrd
    If done properly, this can be IPLed from the Console directly,
    just like the HMC IPL

Disclaimer1:
Hercules is "getting ready for" a new release "real soon now".
(I don't announce things, Jay does that when he is ready.)
It would make sense to time the Linux/390 CD-set some time after the
initial Hercules_2.16 dust has settled.

Disclaimer2:
I haven't talked to Volker about these plans at all, so I don't know
how this fits in with his schedule, and we both have day jobs.
Building on Volkers existing CD has the advantage that all of the windows stuff
has been done the way it should be done. (I don't have windows here, so I wouldn't know).
I have played with Volker before (http://www.bsp-gmbh.com/hercules/os390/) 
and we both had fun, and were able to learn from each other.

Disclaimer3:
I haven't talked to Sam & Sam at cbttape.org about their plans at
http://www.cbttape.org/linux390.htm, and I don't want to step on toes. 
However, I _do_ think that there's a need for a Linux/390 playground.
In terms of Bandwidth, I can host this at source.rfc822.org, and
I'm sure we'll find a home for it on other continents as well.

Richard
--
I stand corrected: M$-Exchange *IS* RFC-Compliant.
RFC1925 Para 2 Section (3)
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1925.html 
Have a nice day ;-) Richard Higson mailto:richard.higson@gt.owl.de

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References: <E16xcUY-00016T-00@the-village.bc.nu> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204161952210.31364-100000@mearnest.oas.psu.edu>
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Jay Maynard <jmaynard@conmicro.cx>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204161952210.31364-100000@mearnest.oas.psu.edu>; from mxe20@psu.edu on Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:55:02PM -0400

On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:55:02PM -0400, Mark Earnest wrote:
> Hey, not fair! I happen to know one MVS systems programmer who is a
> balding 23 year old fart :)

Yes, they do exist, but they're extremely rare...

I gave a talk at SHARE (the IBM large system users group) last July. I noted
that my 41st birthday was the Friday of that week, and asked how many folks
in the room were younger than I was. Only a few hands (out of about 70
people there) went in the air.

IBM's going to have serious problems with this if it doesn't do something
about it...

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Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204161952210.31364-100000@mearnest.oas.psu.edu>

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Mark Earnest wrote:

> On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Alan Cox wrote:
> > ... making everyone think of balding old farts who speak only JCL 8)
>
> Hey, not fair! I happen to know one MVS systems programmer who is a
> balding 23 year old fart :)

You telling us that MVS causes premature hair loss?
or that it leads to early-onset flatulence?

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From:         Greg Smith <gsmith@nc.rr.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?

On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Alan Cox wrote:
> Then what are the gains - more people doing S/390 build for testing and also
> able to look at S/390 specific bugs in general open source code. More
> application availability - without Hercules there would be no Mumps for
> S/390 for example.

Interesting.   Consider a snippet from the April 15th update described at
http://www10.software.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/linux390/exp-2_4_17.shtml 

Description:  Dasd device bringup.
Symptom:      The system crashes in dasd device bringup.
Problem:      The bottom half can be called early with a request on the block
              device queue. The bottom half requeues the request to the internal
              dasd queue although the device is in a state where this may not
              happen yet.
Solution:     Plug the device while it is initialized.

Examine the diff updates to dasd.c. Contrast this to
http://www.marist.edu/htbin/wlvtype?LINUX-VM.23791 

Coincidence ??  I don't think so.  Alan's point is already proved.

I think I can safely testify that this was not a trivial piece of debugging
work; I was first made aware of the problem in late November.  I can also
rather confidently testify that without available source that I would not
have identified the problem in the same timeframe.  What would happen in
a closed source environment such as z/os ??

But, according to Phil Payne, I can be politely described as a `mug'.
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/message/17770). 
`mug' or not, I think this could be an example where IBM benefited not
only from opensource but also from hercules.

As an observation, I think a `fair number' of hercules users are rather
well-versed in IBM mainframe software/os installation.  A fair number of these
are/were system programmers.  A fair number believe in the mainframe and its
capabilities, and are advocates of IBM mainframe technology.  I would venture
to guess that the number of man-years in experience of IBM mainframe technology
by hercules users is staggering.

But, I'm only a `mug'.  I suppose we're actually much better off living
in Phil's perfect world.

Greg Smith

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From:         Mark Earnest <mxe20@psu.edu>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  <20020416194210.B12455@thebrain.conmicro.cx>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Jay Maynard wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 16, 2002 at 07:55:02PM -0400, Mark Earnest wrote:
> > Hey, not fair! I happen to know one MVS systems programmer who is a
> > balding 23 year old fart :)
> Yes, they do exist, but they're extremely rare...
> I gave a talk at SHARE (the IBM large system users group) last July. I noted
> that my 41st birthday was the Friday of that week, and asked how many folks
> in the room were younger than I was. Only a few hands (out of about 70
> people there) went in the air.

At Share in Boston a few years back, I believe it was discovered that I
was the youngest by around 10 years. I agree there is going to be a real
problem with lack of MVS experience, but that is a problem I am looking
forward to <devilish grin>

- --
Mark Earnest
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Senior Systems Programmer
AIS-Infrastructure
Penn State University

Email: mxe20@psu.edu
Office Phone: 814-863-2064
Public Key - http://mearnest.oas.psu.edu/gpgkey.txt 

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From:         "Patterson, Ross" <ROSS.PATTERSON@ca.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?

Richard Higson <richard.higson@gt.owl.de> writes:
>  For each of the distro's in
>   Redhat, SuSE, Turbo, Debian, ThinkBlue/64 (Have I missed any?)

Caiman (http://linux390.linuxkorea.co.kr/devel/index.php) from 
LinuxKorea.  Every time I leave them out of a public list, I get
a polite reminder that some big-name Asian operations run it.
Last time I promised I wouldn't make the same mistake again! :-)

Ross Patterson
Computer Associates

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Date:         Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:45:47 +0200
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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Phil Payne <Linux@isham-research.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?

> Richard Higson <richard.higson@gt.owl.de> writes:
> >  For each of the distro's in
> >   Redhat, SuSE, Turbo, Debian, ThinkBlue/64 (Have I missed any?)
>
> Caiman (http://linux390.linuxkorea.co.kr/devel/index.php) from 
> LinuxKorea.  Every time I leave them out of a public list, I get
> a polite reminder that some big-name Asian operations run it.
> Last time I promised I wouldn't make the same mistake again! :-)

Someone should maintain a standard URL.  Don't any of the XOpen/Linux bodies have a
page-per-platform listing distros?

--
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.com 
  +44 7785 302 803
  +49 173 6242039

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From:         "Wolfe, Gordon W" <gordon.w.wolfe@boeing.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?

You young whipper-snappers don't know how good you got it!  Why I remember
back when I was just a young systems programmer all we had was wood-burning
computers!  I had to go out in the snow at 4 am and split kindling just so I
could boot up!  Got any Geritol on ya? What were we talking about?

"You do not need a parachute to skydive.  You only need a parachute to
skydive twice."  -Motto of the Darwin Society
Gordon W. Wolfe, Ph.D.  (425) 865-5940
VM Technical Services, The Boeing Company

> ----------
> From:         Mark Earnest
> Reply To:     Linux on 390 Port
> Sent:         Tuesday, April 16, 2002 4:55 PM
> To:   LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
> Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Alan Cox wrote:
> > How many shipped because Linux existed for S/390 - thats the important
> > question. Including the hard to quantify "cool factor" it gave the 390
> > instead of making everyone think of balding old farts who speak only JCL
> 8)
>
> Hey, not fair! I happen to know one MVS systems programmer who is a
> balding 23 year old fart :)
>
> - --
> Mark Earnest
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Senior Systems Programmer
> AIS-Infrastructure
> Penn State University
>
> Email: mxe20@psu.edu
> Office Phone: 814-863-2064
> Public Key - http://mearnest.oas.psu.edu/gpgkey.txt 
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>
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> =IDkE
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>

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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         "Peter Webb, Toronto Transit Commission" <Peter.Webb@ttc.ca>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?

Wood-burning computers? Why you had it soft! When I was a computer operator,
we had water wheel powered computers. I had to go back of the dam and chop a
hole in the ice to run CICS, and I had to use a keg of black powder to bust
up the ice to run the monthly reports. And don't get me started about the
clay-tablet printer! ;)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wolfe, Gordon W [SMTP:gordon.w.wolfe@boeing.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 11:39 AM
> To:   LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
> Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
>
> You young whipper-snappers don't know how good you got it!  Why I remember
> back when I was just a young systems programmer all we had was
> wood-burning
> computers!  I had to go out in the snow at 4 am and split kindling just so
> I
> could boot up!  Got any Geritol on ya? What were we talking about?
>
> "You do not need a parachute to skydive.  You only need a parachute to
> skydive twice."  -Motto of the Darwin Society
> Gordon W. Wolfe, Ph.D.  (425) 865-5940
> VM Technical Services, The Boeing Company
>
>
> > ----------
> > From:         Mark Earnest
> > Reply To:     Linux on 390 Port
> > Sent:         Tuesday, April 16, 2002 4:55 PM
> > To:   LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU
> > Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
> >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Alan Cox wrote:
> > > How many shipped because Linux existed for S/390 - thats the important
> > > question. Including the hard to quantify "cool factor" it gave the 390
> > > instead of making everyone think of balding old farts who speak only
> JCL
> > 8)
> >
> > Hey, not fair! I happen to know one MVS systems programmer who is a
> > balding 23 year old fart :)
> >
> > - --
> > Mark Earnest
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Senior Systems Programmer
> > AIS-Infrastructure
> > Penn State University
> >
> > Email: mxe20@psu.edu
> > Office Phone: 814-863-2064
> > Public Key - http://mearnest.oas.psu.edu/gpgkey.txt 
> >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
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> >
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> > RUzcp/hap83z1HBTnuFfrc4=
> > =IDkE
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> >

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Approved-By:  Phil Payne <Linux@ISHAM-RESEARCH.COM>
Message-ID:  <003501c1e62e$87bd51a0$0900a8c0@transnote>
Date:         Wed, 17 Apr 2002 18:39:59 +0200
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         Phil Payne <Linux@isham-research.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
> And don't get me started about the clay-tablet printer! ;)
 
We used to print Braille on 1403s.  Weird.
 
You put strange backing paper in the gate, and you mounted a special ribbon.
 
Then you threw the paper away and sent the customer the ribbon.
 
--
  Phil Payne
  http://www.isham-research.com 
  +44 7785 302 803
  +49 173 6242039

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Approved-By:  John Campbell <soupjr@US.IBM.COM>
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Date:         Wed, 17 Apr 2002 12:49:22 -0400
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From:         John Campbell <soupjr@us.ibm.com>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
 
Clay Tablets?  You had CLAY Tablets?  Whoa!
 
We had to chisel our reports into granite-  after we quarried the rocks.
The computers were fluidic and couldn't be run when cold, so a cold start
was difficult!
 
And sharpening the chisels on a daily basis was 2/3rds of our workload in
operations.
The burster/decollator folks hated all the rock dust they'd be coated with.
 
We didn't even HAVE disks back then-  the wheel hadn't yet been developed!
 
--------------------
John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines (GNUrd)      {813-356|697}-5322
"Will Work for CLAIM Codes"
IBM Certified: IBM AIX 4.3 System Administration, System Support
http://packrat.tampa.ibmus2.ibm.com/~soupjrc/ 
Backup: Toby Schmeling {813-356|697}-5233

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Approved-By:  Rich Smrcina <rsmrcina@WI.RR.COM>
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From:         Rich Smrcina <rsmrcina@wi.rr.com>
Organization: Sytek Services
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  <BC9564600E40C541983FCD6BEAF814FE03C94F98@xch-knt-15.nw.nos.boeing.com>

Oh yeah and let me guess, walking back and forth to work in that snow with
just sandals on, up hill both ways!

On Wednesday 17 April 2002 10:39 am, you wrote:
> You young whipper-snappers don't know how good you got it!  Why I remember
> back when I was just a young systems programmer all we had was wood-burning
> computers!  I had to go out in the snow at 4 am and split kindling just so
> I could boot up!  Got any Geritol on ya? What were we talking about?

--
Rich Smrcina
Sytek Services, Inc.
Milwaukee, WI
rsmrcina@wi.rr.com
rsmrcina@sytek-services.com

Catch the WAVV!  Stay for Requirements and the Free for All!
Update your S/390 skills in 4 days for a very reasonable price.
WAVV 2003 in Winston-Salem, NC.
April 25-29, 2003
For details see http://www.wavv.org

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Date:         Thu, 18 Apr 2002 06:24:19 +0800
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         John Summerfield <summer@os2.ami.com.au>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  Your message of "Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:36:06 +0100." <E16xcUY-00016T-00@the-village.bc.nu>
 
>
> Then what are the gains - more people doing S/390 build for testing and also
> able to look at S/390 specific bugs in general open source code. More
> application availability - without Hercules there would be no Mumps for
> S/390 for example.
 
When I was on the Herc list there were smallish people looking to do
OS/390 and z/OS development on Hercules.
 
MVS 3.8 on my Pentium 133 was about equal to a 370/148 with lots of
RAM, and DSS (Australia) used to do all its processing for NSW and VIC
on a 145 each (on VS1).
 
My Pentium II beat the S370/168s rather well, and DSS used a pair of
those running SVS to implement Medibank in the 70s.
 
Hercules on a PC makes a very nice personal mainframe - how many
corporate types here could justify $US2000 a seat for a reasonable set
of licences so as to leave the mainframes for income-earning activities?
 
 
--
Cheers
John Summerfield
 
Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/ 
 
Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my
disposition.
 
==============================
If you don't like being told you're wrong,
        be right!

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Date:         Thu, 18 Apr 2002 06:39:34 +0800
Reply-To:     Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         John Summerfield <summer@os2.ami.com.au>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  Your message of "Wed, 17 Apr 2002 02:11:19 +0200." <20020417001119.GA21804@glurp.gt.owl.de>
 
richard.higson@gt.owl.de said:
>  OK, here we go...
>  For each of the distro's in
>   Redhat, SuSE, Turbo, Debian, ThinkBlue/64 (Have I missed any?)
>     I'd like a single bootable CCKD DASD Image about 1/5th of a CDROM
>     large. (No need for a swap partition, a single SWAP should be OK)
>     Standardised "HW" possibly similar to what I have for my Debian/
> 390
>       200     3390    DEB390-CCKD sf=DEB390-shadow_   nosyio
>       201     3390    SWAP-CCKD   sf=SWAP-shadow_     nosyio
>       A000    3088    CTCI (windows or Linux syntax, standardised
> IPADDR)
>       A001    3088    CTCI
>       ????    3505    ./rdr/whatever
>       ????    3420    ./tape/whatever.TDF
 
>     If we have enough room, I'd like to include a "boot_dir"
> containing
 
Hmm
650/5 = Not Very Much.
 
You can do it, but a joy to use it won't be.
 
Consider making a DVD image.
 
Structure it so each distro is separate and separately downloadable.
Set it up so one can download any combination and combine two or three
of them (using mkisofs) into a single ISO for burning or simply using,
maybe over the LAN.
 
Presumably you plan to have some kind of menu selection; have the
script that displays it detect what's actually present on the image.
 
Speaking of "over the lan" - how cool would it be to run it directly
from YOUR site on MY pc over the Internet!
 
 
 
--
Cheers
John Summerfield
 
Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/ 
 
Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my
disposition.
 
==============================
If you don't like being told you're wrong,
        be right!

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From:         "Peter D. Ward" <pdw@marcdatabase.com>
Organization: Fundamental Software/Peter D. Ward, Inc.
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?

John Summerfield wrote:

> how many
> corporate types here could justify $US2000 a seat for a reasonable set
> of licences so as to leave the mainframes for income-earning activities?

How did you come up with the USD2000 a seat number?

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Sender:       Linux on 390 Port <LINUX-390@VM.MARIST.EDU>
From:         John Summerfield <summer@os2.ami.com.au>
Subject:      Re: OK who messed with the redbook?
In-Reply-To:  Your message of "Thu, 18 Apr 2002 10:23:17 -0400." <3CBED6D5.BC1D967F@marcdatabase.com>

> John Summerfield wrote:
>
> > how many
> > corporate types here could justify $US2000 a seat for a reasonable set
> > of licences so as to leave the mainframes for income-earning activities?
>
> How did you come up with the USD2000 a seat number?

Pick a number. If you have a better one, suggest it. The  number is
less important than the principle.

--
Cheers
John Summerfield

Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/ 

Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my
disposition.

==============================
If you don't like being told you're wrong,
        be right!