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From: John.Mck...@ibm-main.lst (McKown, John)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
Date: 5 Oct 2006 12:44:02 -0700
Organization: None
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I got this from the FlexES group. I don't know anything else, but it
sounds a bit ominous to me. But, then again, I don't know.
I just thought it might be of interest to some here as well.
--
John McKown
Senior Systems Programmer
HealthMarkets
Keeping the Promise of Affordable Coverage
Administrative Services Group
Information Technology
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-----Original Message-----
From: FLEX-ES S/390 Emulator [mailto:FLEX...@ibm-main.lst
On Behalf Of Steven Friedman
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 2:30 PM
To: FLEX...@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
A Letter to the FLEX-ES User Community:
An unfortunate set of circumstances has recently arisen that,
unless addressed by IBM immediately, will result in the abrupt
termination of the very successful 6 year-old Partnerworld for
Developers FLEX-ES delivery program.
To provide some history for background purposes, T3
Technologies, Inc. is a long time IBM Premier Business Partner,
specializing in FLEX-ES technology. In 2000, shortly after the IBM P/390
product program ended, members of the IBM PWD community had no
affordable hardware options for development platforms. I personally
approached Jeff Magdahl, then manager of the S/390 PWD program, with an
idea to again offer PWD members a very low cost mainframe development
platform, this time based on FLEX-ES technology. The concept I brought
to Jeff was fully in synch with his mission for PWD-to incent developers
to continue developing mainframe applications, thereby maintaining a
healthy environment for IBM mainframe sales.
The result was a family of products offered by T3, ranging from
a "Mainframe on a Thinkpad" to our more robust 100 MIPS+ x-Series based
servers. To date, T3 has delivered over 600 tServer units in 28
countries, a majority to the approximately 1,400-member worldwide
mainframe PWD community.
Unfortunately, a S/390 licensing dispute between IBM and
Fundamental Software (FSI) is now underway and the collateral damage
will likely mean the end to this PWD delivery program. It seems FSI has
a patent license with IBM for certain S/390 rights that expire on
October 31, 2006. Without renewal of that licensing program, FSI can no
longer provide FLEX-ES licenses to this PWD program. And, incredibly, it
seems IBM is not currently entertaining a renegotiation of that license
agreement with FSI. It is entirely likely that the IBM'ers responsible
for this (lack of) negotiation are not even aware of the impact this may
have, and the potential ripple effect through the mainframe developer's
community. With no similar low cost options available, many developers
will have no choice but to cease their mainframe development and support
of literally hundreds if not thousands of mainframe software
applications.
Strategically, this does not make much business sense for IBM,
obviously has an impact to T3's business, and likely has significant
ramifications to ALL PWD businesses. I am therefore asking all of our
customers, indeed all PWD members to join me in a letter/emailing
campaign to the relevant IBM managers in zSeries and in the Partnerworld
for Developers Program. My hope is to shed some light on the situation
to the decision makers and force a restoration of this very important
mainframe developer's incentive program.
Without your collective help, this very beneficial PWD program
will end in just 26 days!!! Please be specific and direct in your
emails. Pull no punches, and let IBM know how you feel about this, and
how it impacts your plans to continue delivering zArchitecture products.
Existing PWD FLEX licenses are valid through the end dates of
your current IBM agreements. No action can be taken to prematurely
cancel those agreements. T3 and FSI will continue to provide the highest
levels of support to all FLEX users through those expiration dates. New
orders can be filled through October 31.
.
This situation has no effect on current production users of
tServers or other FLEX-based systems. FLEX-ES production licenses are,
essentially, lifetime licenses. T3 and FSI will continue to provide
support to our production customers for as long as you request it.
Let us not sit back and hope that saner minds prevail. Join me
in taking some action to protect our collective business futures.
Sincerely
Steven Friedman
President, T3 Technologies Inc.
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From: d...@ibm-main.lst (David Andrews)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: Re: FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
Date: 5 Oct 2006 13:11:11 -0700
Organization: None
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <1160079062.4624.52.camel@dba.duda.com>
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You have to wonder whether this is related to T3's introduction of PSI's
"Liberty" servers. Liberty overlaps the z9BC low end, perhaps through
250 MIPS.
I'm sure Phil would know more, but he's probably too busy fiddling with
his Audi to care much.
--
David Andrews
A. Duda and Sons, Inc.
david.andr...@duda.com
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From: eric-phmin...@ibm-main.lst (Eric N. Bielefeld)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: Re: FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
Date: 5 Oct 2006 14:36:45 -0700
Organization: None
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <002701c6e8c6$5427a210$6401a8c0@ericapm9hpwqxr>
References: <80ED1590A931EE45BAE1DA52D25AE0F20549D9AD@UICNRHECHP6.uicnrh.dom>
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This surely seems like a good way to start killing the mainframe. Get rid
of the developers of software products for your system. Also, get rid of
all of the really small companies off the mainframe that will never now grow
into large customers. There doesn't seem to be a lot of smarts in IBM in
some areas.
I have a question. I know this has been discussed in the past, but I
haven't heard any updates lately. Does the FlexEs product legally run z/OS
in 64 bit addressing mode yet? The last we discussed it on IBM-Main, if I
remember correctly, you couldn't run 64 bit addressing mode, meaning z/OS
1.6 and above wouldn't run on it.
Why would IBM want to kill off their smallest customers? It just doesn't
make sense. IBM is sure sending a lot of mixed signals! Phil Payne - where
are you?
Eric Bielefeld
Sr. z/OS Systems Programmer
Milwaukee Wisconsin
414-475-7434
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From: tom_moul...@ibm-main.lst (Tom Moulder)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: RE: FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
Date: 5 Oct 2006 14:41:06 -0700
Organization: None
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <006301c6e8c6$f1492870$0202fea9@TREXHP>
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I work with a company that is running a FLEX-ES and z/OS 1.6. Guess they
got the issues worked out.
Tom Moulder
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-M...@ibm-main.lst
Of Eric N. Bielefeld
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 4:37 PM
To: IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
This surely seems like a good way to start killing the mainframe. Get rid
of the developers of software products for your system. Also, get rid of
all of the really small companies off the mainframe that will never now grow
into large customers. There doesn't seem to be a lot of smarts in IBM in
some areas.
I have a question. I know this has been discussed in the past, but I
haven't heard any updates lately. Does the FlexEs product legally run z/OS
in 64 bit addressing mode yet? The last we discussed it on IBM-Main, if I
remember correctly, you couldn't run 64 bit addressing mode, meaning z/OS
1.6 and above wouldn't run on it.
Why would IBM want to kill off their smallest customers? It just doesn't
make sense. IBM is sure sending a lot of mixed signals! Phil Payne - where
are you?
Eric Bielefeld
Sr. z/OS Systems Programmer
Milwaukee Wisconsin
414-475-7434
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From: wdrisc...@ibm-main.lst (Wayne Driscoll)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: RE: FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
Date: 5 Oct 2006 14:51:22 -0700
Organization: None
Lines: 83
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Eric,
There never really were any "Technical" issues with running 64-bit under
FLEX, it just worked. The issue, and why Tom gets around it, is a
"legal & licensing" one. IBM will only allow PWD members to run a FLEX
in 64 bit mode. If you were a small shop that wanted to run z/OS under
FLEX for "production" work (assuming that production isn't compiling and
testing software products), then you were limited to only 31 bit mode.
Again, limited smarts in IBM on this.
Wayne Driscoll
Product Developer
JME Software LLC
NOTE: All opinions are strictly my own.
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-M...@ibm-main.lst
Behalf Of Tom Moulder
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 4:41 PM
To: IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
I work with a company that is running a FLEX-ES and z/OS 1.6. Guess
they got the issues worked out.
Tom Moulder
-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-M...@ibm-main.lst
Behalf Of Eric N. Bielefeld
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 4:37 PM
To: IBM-M...@BAMA.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
This surely seems like a good way to start killing the mainframe. Get
rid of the developers of software products for your system. Also, get
rid of all of the really small companies off the mainframe that will
never now grow
into large customers. There doesn't seem to be a lot of smarts in IBM
in some areas.
I have a question. I know this has been discussed in the past, but I
haven't heard any updates lately. Does the FlexEs product legally run
z/OS in 64 bit addressing mode yet? The last we discussed it on
IBM-Main, if I remember correctly, you couldn't run 64 bit addressing
mode, meaning z/OS
1.6 and above wouldn't run on it.
Why would IBM want to kill off their smallest customers? It just
doesn't make sense. IBM is sure sending a lot of mixed signals! Phil
Payne - where
are you?
Eric Bielefeld
Sr. z/OS Systems Programmer
Milwaukee Wisconsin
414-475-7434
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From: eric-phmin...@ibm-main.lst (Eric N. Bielefeld)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: Re: FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
Date: 5 Oct 2006 16:08:54 -0700
Organization: None
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <005001c6e8d3$2e2814c0$6401a8c0@ericapm9hpwqxr>
References: <2A7F350031C5DC4F9BF050D58CE93C4B98C323@MAIL26.myITlive.com>
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So, if your a PWD member, you can run 64 bit mode, but if your company just
needs 10 - 30 MIPS or so, you can only run 31 bit mode? That doesn't make
any sense. Is there anyone out there from IBM who can explain this, and
tell us why IBM wants to kill the FLEX box? I'm sure that a few of the
IBMers on this list must at least know who to ask and could find out, but I
bet we won't hear from any IBMers.
Eric Bielefeld
Sr. z/OS Systems Programmer
Milwaukee Wisconsin
414-475-7434
> Eric,
> There never really were any "Technical" issues with running 64-bit under
> FLEX, it just worked. The issue, and why Tom gets around it, is a
> "legal & licensing" one. IBM will only allow PWD members to run a FLEX
> in 64 bit mode. If you were a small shop that wanted to run z/OS under
> FLEX for "production" work (assuming that production isn't compiling and
> testing software products), then you were limited to only 31 bit mode.
> Again, limited smarts in IBM on this.
> Wayne Driscoll
> Product Developer
> JME Software LLC
> NOTE: All opinions are strictly my own.
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From: Alan_Altm...@ibm-main.lst (Alan Altmark)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
Date: 5 Oct 2006 16:29:47 -0700
Organization: None
Lines: 28
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On Thursday, 10/05/2006 at 04:36 EST, "Eric N. Bielefeld"
<eric-phmin...@WI.RR.COM> wrote:
> I have a question. I know this has been discussed in the past, but I
> haven't heard any updates lately. Does the FlexEs product legally run
z/OS
> in 64 bit addressing mode yet? The last we discussed it on IBM-Main, if
I
> remember correctly, you couldn't run 64 bit addressing mode, meaning
z/OS
> 1.6 and above wouldn't run on it.
As it has been explained to me, members of IBM PartnerWorld in Development
(PWD) are entitled to obtain the FLEX-ES dongle that enables the
z/Architecture support. Non-members are not.
Non-PWD members are not supposed to be in possession of the dongle and are
not licensed to use z/Architecture on the box even if they *do* possess
it. (An agreement with IBM to the contrary overrides the whole thing, of
course.)
Alan Altmark
z/VM Development
IBM Endicott
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From: edja...@ibm-main.lst (Edward Jaffe)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: Re: FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
Date: 5 Oct 2006 16:50:58 -0700
Organization: Phoenix Software International, Inc.
Lines: 28
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Eric N. Bielefeld wrote:
> So, if your a PWD member, you can run 64 bit mode, but if your company
> just needs 10 - 30 MIPS or so, you can only run 31 bit mode? That
> doesn't make any sense. Is there anyone out there from IBM who can
> explain this, and tell us why IBM wants to kill the FLEX box? I'm
> sure that a few of the IBMers on this list must at least know who to
> ask and could find out, but I bet we won't hear from any IBMers.
If you run 10-30 MIPS, chances are you're running z/VSE. That operating
system runs on the vast majority of "production" FLEX-ES systems. There
are other z/Architecture emulators coming into the picture and real
mainframe hardware now starts as small as 28 MIPS, so the landscape has
changed considerably since FLEX-ES was first introduced. IBM may be
taking a wait and see approach.
--
Edward E Jaffe
Phoenix Software International, Inc
5200 W Century Blvd, Suite 800
Los Angeles, CA 90045
310-338-0400 x318
edja...@phoenixsoftware.com
http://www.phoenixsoftware.com/
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From: timothy.sipp...@ibm-main.lst (Timothy Sipples)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: Re: FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
Date: 5 Oct 2006 21:56:00 -0700
Organization: None
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <OFA2F1B5D4.1323C783-ON492571FF.001761EB-492571FF.001B11F2@us.ibm.com>
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>If you run 10-30 MIPS, chances are you're running z/VSE. That operating
>system runs on the vast majority of "production" FLEX-ES systems. There
>are other z/Architecture emulators coming into the picture and real
>mainframe hardware now starts as small as 28 MIPS, so the landscape has
>changed considerably since FLEX-ES was first introduced. IBM may be
>taking a wait and see approach.
I have no particular insider knowledge on this, but a few more points on
small mainframes:
1. IBM dropped the minimum purchase level for mainframe software products
down to 3 MSUs because smaller customers needed this (and small projects
within larger companies). This now means the mainframe is the cheapest
place to put, say, WebSphere Message Broker.
2. IBM dropped the price almost in half on the 26 MIPS System z9 BC A01
from the previous entry model, the z890 Model 110. I didn't do a totally
scientific study, but I believe today's mainframe is the same dollar price
as any of the previously lowest price entry models, including the "baby
mainframes" of yesteryear that people remember fondly. In
inflation-adjusted terms it's much lower of course. The z9 is a much
better machine than any predecessor and every bit a real mainframe, even at
26 MIPS, for true mainframe qualities of service.
3. The U.S. price of a brand new BC A01 is now about the same as one full
time (fully burdened) employee's annual compensation, for perspective.
4. The 26 MIPS model is 4 MSUs. You can set subcapacity limits below that
if your needs are even more modest, and special software pricing is
available.
5. Genuine z/OS (in the form of z/OS.e) is available for a small fraction
of the price for any new workloads, including DB2.
6. There's more competition than ever in the tools and utilities business,
driving down costs. There are even 5 operating systems available to
choose, including one IBM doesn't make (Linux) that's just a little
popular. :-)
7. IBM announced there will be changes to z/VSE pricing terms with Version
4 related to subcapacity. (This is good.)
8. The z800 (minimum 40 MIPS, subcapacity eligible) is a real 64-bit
mainframe and is available on the secondary market for less than the price
of popular automobiles. A "small" z900 (also subcapacity eligible) is
probably less than that. (Well, if a one person personal data center now
has a z900....)
All that said, small mainframe customers (and developers) should keep
letting IBM know what they need. IBM generally does respond if it can, as
in the examples above.
- - - - -
Timothy Sipples
IBM Consulting Enterprise Software Architect
Specializing in Software Architectures Related to System z
Based in Tokyo, Serving IBM Japan and IBM Asia-Pacific
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com
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From: pinnc...@ibm-main.lst (Pinnacle)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: Re: FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
Date: 5 Oct 2006 22:31:19 -0700
Organization: None
Lines: 32
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References: <IBM-MAIN%200610052300008690.0BCF@BAMA.UA.EDU>
<OFA2F1B5D4.1323C783-ON492571FF.001761EB-492571FF.001B11F2@us.ibm.com>
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Sipples" <timothy.sipp...@ibm-main.lst>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
>
> <snip>
>
> All that said, small mainframe customers (and developers) should keep
> letting IBM know what they need. IBM generally does respond if it can, as
> in the examples above.
>
Tim,
The bottom line is that IBM keeps erecting barriers for small developers to
get on the platform. That's why I'm still developing on a P390 with z/OS
V1R4 in 31-bit mode. PWD recently added a $1000/yr license charge for the
ADCD which was previously free. The FLEX-ES boxes at >10K for a laptop or
>30K for a server are priced beyond my means. So only the big developers
will continue to develop for z/OS, everyone else will keep developing for
NET, Java, and Linux on their commodity PC's for <$1000. If IBM abandons
FLEX-ES, you won't have any z/OS development happening in any company under
$1M market cap. Good luck when that happens.
Regards,
Tom Conley
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From: Alan_Altm...@ibm-main.lst (Alan Altmark)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
Date: 5 Oct 2006 23:14:48 -0700
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On Friday, 10/06/2006 at 01:31 AST, Pinnacle <pinnc...@ROCHESTER.RR.COM>
wrote:
> The bottom line is that IBM keeps erecting barriers for small developers
to
> get on the platform. That's why I'm still developing on a P390 with
z/OS
> V1R4 in 31-bit mode. PWD recently added a $1000/yr license charge for
the
> ADCD which was previously free. The FLEX-ES boxes at >10K for a laptop
or
> >30K for a server are priced beyond my means. So only the big
developers
> will continue to develop for z/OS, everyone else will keep developing
for
> .NET, Java, and Linux on their commodity PC's for <$1000. If IBM
abandons
> FLEX-ES, you won't have any z/OS development happening in any company
under
> $1M market cap. Good luck when that happens.
If PWD is really not affordable, then each and every member of PWD who
does z/OS development *should* rise up and be heard.
The rock/hard place is if you do s/w development as a hobby, not as a
business, and just want to have fun, recoup your costs, and have a little
something left over to supplement other sources of income. For those
folks the ante may be too high. But I just don't know; I've never been a
self-employed s/w developer.
Alan Altmark
z/VM Development
IBM Endicott
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From: step...@ibm-main.lst (Stephen Y Odo)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: Re: FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
Date: 6 Oct 2006 02:00:31 -0700
Organization: University of Hawaii Information Technology Services
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Alan Altmark wrote:
> The rock/hard place is if you do s/w development as a hobby, not as a
> business, and just want to have fun, recoup your costs, and have a little
> something left over to supplement other sources of income. For those
> folks the ante may be too high. But I just don't know; I've never been a
> self-employed s/w developer.
>
And it strikes me as sad that IBM would exclude "hobbyists" like
myself. A lot of good things have come out of people who developed
stuff just for fun ...
Also, IBM excludes all those students who would want to write programs
on the mainframe or just learn how. They can get a Windows or Linux
laptop for about $1.5K with all the software they need. The only way
they can do anything with z/OS is to get an account on somebody's
mainframe ... which is nearly impossible at our institution.
They can get a Linux box and start experimenting and learning without
having to write up a project proposal and getting approval to get access
to a system.
--Stephen
--
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From: p...@ibm-main.lst (Phil Payne)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: FW:A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community
Date: 6 Oct 2006 03:04:34 -0700
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> I'm sure Phil would know more, but he's probably too busy fiddling with his Audi to care
much.
I've been booked for a magazine photo-shoot on Monday - "Practical Classics" - to illustrate a
how-to article about servicing AUdi fuel injection systems. When it's published, I'll post
the URI so you can admire my manly figure. Just bought a new T-shirt specially.
I'm not really that up to speed on the current status, largely because a lot of the
discussions have been between FSI (who are as tight as a duck's posterior sphincter when it
comes to discussing their relationships) and a very few people at IBM who are probably more
ashamed about discussing their activities that anything else.
And trying to find out how Google works is as much fun as Assembler I/O programming back in
the 1960s - nothing ever works like it's supposed to, and getting ahead of the game is fun.
I knew there was a contract expiry due, but I believed it was between FSI and T3. With all
the noise T3 has been making about the PSI "product", you can't blame FSI for being a little
cautious about renewing an agreement with the world-exclusive marketing arm of a competitor.
There are some very technical issues about intellectual property that I, for one, am glad I'm
not involved in.
I'm told that T3 is planning a launch of the PSI "product" and has invited its PWD customers -
not a way to improve relations with your other supplier. Or IBM, for that matter.
I do have a fragmentary transciript of the exact words an IBM executive used when referring to
PSI's chances of getting software licenses. I also know that PSI has a corporate lawyer with
a LOT of experience in precisely this sector. I await developments.
I know Steve will be very upset with me (but what's new about that) but my first take is that
he's poisoned his FSI relationship with his gung ho attitude to PSI, and now he's discovered
that the PSI "product" is no such thing.
I've always thought the FSI/IBM intellectual property agreements were of unspecified length
and mutual - FSI has a few patents, too - and I can't see that an expiry would be expected. I
don't think the agreements are as comprehensive as some people would like, but that's a horse
with different feathers.
I understand from a couple of sources that PWD AD/CD renewals are currently running below 70%.
This saddens me because it's another "critical mass" issue and I fear the platform is rapidly
approaching that in a number of ways.
Words fail me when it comes to IBM's refusal to sanction commercial 64-bit operation under
FLEX-ES. This is at one time the STUPIDEST and most predatory action IBM has taken since
1956. It is incredibly, cretinously dumb and will lead to the zSeries market collapsing
several years before it would otherwise do so. Given the huge profit margins on zSeries
software, it would IMO be appropriate for stockholders to ask for a review of this strategy
before it's too late - if it isn't already.
We now have the situation where ISVs are developing applications that mandate DB2 V8 and their
customers are unable to run it because their FLEX-ES system only supports ARCHLVL=2 in 31-bit
mode. So they buy a Superdome.
How ANYONE can maintain that IBM does what its customers want in this situation is really way
beyond me.
Can no one do TCO calculations at IBM any more? ´Has the skill evaporated? You can make a
zBox cheap, and its software, but you still need external peripherals - cost, power and
service - which you get thrown in with a FLEX-ES solution. Internally emulated DASD are a
damn sight faster, too. Have any of them compared the cost/GB between old iron and a state of
the art PC server? And things like Faketape and printer emulation have huge benefits for
small users. All things a big, dumb piece of iron can't do. The world has moved on. But I
understand the HMC got a new GUI recently, so that's all right.
I'm told that one senior zSeries executive "would be happy with an installed base loss around
5% a year". It's actually quite a bit more than that now - but can you even IMAGINE what
Thomas Watson would have said to a salesman who thought a declining base - or even a static
one - in some way acceptable?
--
Phil Payne
http://www.isham-research.co.uk
+44 7833 654 800
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From: m42tom-ibmm...@ibm-main.lst (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Tom_Marchant?=)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_FW:A_Letter_To_The_FLEX-ES_Community?=
Date: 6 Oct 2006 06:02:52 -0700
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On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:55:43 +0900, Timothy Sipples
<timothy.sipp...@US.IBM.COM> wrote:
>>If you run 10-30 MIPS, chances are you're running z/VSE. That operating
>>system runs on the vast majority of "production" FLEX-ES systems. There
>>are other z/Architecture emulators coming into the picture and real
>>mainframe hardware now starts as small as 28 MIPS, so the landscape has
>>changed considerably since FLEX-ES was first introduced. IBM may be
>>taking a wait and see approach.
>
>I have no particular insider knowledge on this, but a few more points on
>small mainframes:
>
>1. IBM dropped the minimum purchase level for mainframe software products
>down to 3 MSUs ...
Big deal
> This now means the mainframe is the cheapest
>place to put, say, WebSphere Message Broker.
Oh, really?
How useful is Websphere Message Broker on a 3 MSU z/OS system?
>
>2. IBM dropped the price almost in half on the 26 MIPS System z9 BC A01
>from the previous entry model, the z890 Model 110.
Big deal. *All* computing hardware has been dropping at that rate for the
last 40 years. The original HP 4-function calculator cost $700. A lot of
people have almost as much compute power in their wrist watch as a 168.
>
>3. The U.S. price of a brand new BC A01 is now about the same as one full
>time (fully burdened) employee's annual compensation, for perspective.
And the software costs for real customers continues to rise. Customers
have been abandoning the mainframe because of software costs. The hardware
costs have not been driving people away. The point of this thread is
really about the software costs.
>
>4. The 26 MIPS model is 4 MSUs. You can set subcapacity limits below that
>if your needs are even more modest, and special software pricing is
>available.
And IBM continues to cling tightly to the (almost) linear pricing
structure for software. Double the power of your hardware and pay
almost double the price for your software. With the power of
computers doubling every couple of years, it doesn't take any genius
to realize that it can't continue, but IBM can't seem to figure it
out. Pay me a penny today, two cents tomorrow. Double it every day,
and I'll retire wealthy in a month.
>
>5. Genuine z/OS (in the form of z/OS.e) is available for a small fraction
>of the price for any new workloads, including DB2.
But still with the same almost linear price curve, and only on small
processors.
Tom Marchant
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From: timothy.sipp...@ibm-main.lst (Timothy Sipples)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: Software Pricing (Was: A Letter To The FLEX-ES Community)
Date: 9 Oct 2006 01:41:46 -0700
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Sorry, I disagree.
Mainframe software pricing has been falling, quite precipitously in many
cases, over several years. There are a variety of ways that's been true,
and a variety of reasons, but it's fact. And the market trends show no
sign of abating (personal view), so I expect further decreases.
In contrast, non-mainframe software pricing has been soaring.
Mainframe software pricing is *not* linear (at least in IBM's case -- can't
speak for other vendors). Don't know how that rumor got started. If you
look at the "Value Unit Exhibits" in IBM software announcements it's quite
obvious pricing is not linear. Pricing is quite substantially sublinear:
each incremental unit has a progressively lower price.
The fact much IBM mainframe software is available in smaller quantities (at
smaller prices) than non-mainframe software -- WebSphere Message Broker
cited as an example -- is indeed a very big deal. Why wouldn't it be?
Yes, 3 MSUs of WebSphere Message Broker is productively useful in real
customer situations. I try to avoid unreal hypotheticals -- I'm citing an
example from recent experience. There are other examples, like WebSphere
Process Server and WebSphere Commerce Server to pick two more. (WCS is
available on Linux on z.)
Re: the situation of smaller z/OS developers: To convince somebody at IBM
(way above me) there's a problem (and how to fix it), here's how I'd go
about making the argument:
1. Explain why smaller z/OS developers are important. That ought to be
fairly easy.
2. Explain what changed for the worse and how much worse (or what didn't
change but needs to change, and how). I'm a little puzzled because, over a
decent time span anyway, I don't recall z/OS development resources ever
being "cheap." (When was this mythical "those were the days!" everyone is
talking about? Wasn't it a lot more expensive to write and support code
for MVS in, say, 1986?) Is today's price a record low, or is it getting
worse? That's an important question, and I honestly don't know the answer.
3. Explain the business impact. A $1,000/month expense for a software
company making $1,000,000 per year in profit isn't a bad situation, for
example. But reverse those numbers and it's a huge problem. What is the
real world impact to individuals, partners, and customers? What would
happen (good and bad) if IBM were to make the change?
Apologies if all that is obvious, but hopefully it's still useful.
- - - - -
Timothy Sipples
IBM Consulting Enterprise Software Architect
Specializing in Software Architectures Related to System z
Based in Tokyo, Serving IBM Japan and IBM Asia-Pacific
E-Mail: timothy.sipp...@us.ibm.com
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From: m42tom-ibmm...@ibm-main.lst (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Tom_Marchant?=)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Software_Pricing_(Was:_A_Letter_To_The_FLEX-ES_Community)?=
Date: 9 Oct 2006 05:54:20 -0700
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On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:40:05 +0900, Timothy Sipples
<timothy.sipp...@US.IBM.COM> wrote:
>Sorry, I disagree.
You disagree with what? You didn't quote anything.
>
>Mainframe software pricing has been falling, quite precipitously in many
>cases, over several years.
That's a powerful assertion. Back it up with data. Specifically
about MVS and related software. The 10% or so adjustment in MSU
ratings for the new generations is a tiny drop.
>There are a variety of ways that's been true,
>and a variety of reasons, but it's fact. And the market trends show no
>sign of abating (personal view), so I expect further decreases.
Not enough to make a significant difference, IMHO.
>
>In contrast, non-mainframe software pricing has been soaring.
Really? How about some data? The mainframe is the only place that
I know where the software pricing is tied to the compute power of
the processor
>
>Mainframe software pricing is *not* linear (at least in IBM's case -- can't
>speak for other vendors). Don't know how that rumor got started.
The phrase I used was "nearly linear" and I stand by it, but I admit
that it is from memory. I have no data available to me. It would
seem you do, but you do us no service to make these claims without
presenting data to support them.
>If you
>look at the "Value Unit Exhibits" in IBM software announcements it's quite
>obvious pricing is not linear. Pricing is quite substantially sublinear:
>each incremental unit has a progressively lower price.
There is no such section in the z/OS 1.8 announcement. IBM stopped
publishing the price for software in announcements many years ago.
Is there a web site where MVS (and related) software pricing is
documented? I searched and couldn't find it. I used to use it
frequently.
>
>The fact much IBM mainframe software is available in smaller quantities (at
>smaller prices) than non-mainframe software -- WebSphere Message Broker
>cited as an example -- is indeed a very big deal.
Is it a fact? Can you give any numbers to support that assertion?
Tom Marchant
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