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lunic!sunic!liuida!d90pahme
From: d90pa...@odalix.ida.liu.se (Pahl Melin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Please CBM, get serious!
Message-ID: <1992Apr21.123747.2308@ida.liu.se>
Date: 21 Apr 92 12:37:47 GMT
Sender: n...@ida.liu.se
Organization: CIS Dept, Univ of Linkoping, Sweden
Lines: 146
To begin with, I would like to congratulate the OS 2. team at CBM for
having done a great job! For making one of the best OS on the market
even better (actually, quite a lot better) and also making it *LOOK*
much better.
For all those A500 and A2000 owners running the Workbench in 640 x
256, they could not have done a much better job! Splendid! Quite an
improvement if you compare it with the old 1.2 WB which was more an
ugly toy than a serious tool. The new 2.04 WB changed all this and
it now looks and feels almost professional. But only almost...
Sadly to say, there are some serious flaws of the Amiga GUI. I will
point out those that I find most important and I really do hope that
someone at CBM listens, or - already is working on it. Most of these
complaints are purely aesthetical and I know some of you people out
there will complain that it does not matter or that I'm a hypersensitive
aesthetician. But it *DOES* matter. It matters a lot. The hole future
of the Amiga system (partly) depends on this.
The fact is that the Amiga in the 'real world' is not considered to be
more than a game machine (nothing wrong with that, it's a rather good
game machine - but it is also a lot more than just a toy!). It does
not matter that the Amiga is a very capable piece of machinery, more
capable than most ordinary PCs. If all that people sees is a game
machine then it is a game machine. I do know that the Amiga has
lots of serious applications that are quite good, even compared to
Windows and Macintosh app's, but those few occasions when PC users
sees an Amiga app' then it's a crude looking 1.3 app' or a 2.04 app'
running in hires non-interlace. This will certinally not convince
them to switch to an Amiga computer.
As I said above the 2.04 GUI looks much better than 1.3 - but not good
enough. (When I say 'looking good', I don't just mean the looks but also
good planning and layout of gadgets and stuff that makes an app' more
powerful and easy to use. As an addition is also 'looks' better.) The
trouble is that CBM wants all app's to look good in 640 x 256
resolution. But this is not enough to make the Amiga GUI as professional
as other GUIs. Almost every other GUI uses a resolution with square
sized pixels (640 x 480). This resolution can be set on the Amiga,
either with interlace (and a flickerfixer) or productivity mode. But
the extra resolutions should *NOT* be used to cram twice as much data
on the screen like in most app's. It should be used to get nice
looking (or more important: easy to spot and grab) square sized gadgets
and texts. Obviosly, to do this one needs to have two different sets of
gadgets: normal (hires interlace) and talldot (hires). Either by
providing two different versions of the app' or using overlayed hunks
and only loading the correct set. Or, dare I say it, declare hires
non-interlace to be obsolete (at least in the future).
When using windows in hires interlace the sizing gadget (and horisontal
scroll bar in WB) gets half height and is hard to spot and grab with the
mouse pointer. Using a larger screen and window font (e.g. Times 18)
makes it look even smaller. This is also rather ugly and makes the
GUI look unprofessional.
A while ago a posted a question in comp.sys.amiga.programmer about if
the sizing gadget could be forced to be square but I recieved no answers
to my question so I begin to suspect that this can not be done - without
breaking the system, that is. I would be the first one to defend CBMs
OS-programming policy but as long as they don't supply a new TAG_ITEM to
fix this, I will break the system on this point and encourage others
to do so too:
Open a window (in interlace or productivity) without a sizing gadget.
Link a user gadget to the window gadget list with the type
GTYP_SIZING (0x8010) and a square sized image that looks like
the normal system sizing gadget, except beeing twice as high.
(17 x 17 points).
This will break the system as app' gadgets are not allowed to be
GTYP_SYSGADGET (0x8000), but it works now and will probably also
work in future versions of Kickstart.
Before closing the window, you must change the type of your sizing
gadget to, for example GTYP_BOOLGADGET (0x0001). If not,
Intuition thinks *it* has allocated the sizing gadget and answers
with a nice system crash.
I must say that I don't like this anymore than I suspect CBM does,
but it's the best way I know of - but there is also quite a few new
items in the 2.04 Autodocs that I don't know how to use (someone,
please get me a 2.04 RKM before a get a gun!!!). If anyone else has a
better solution, please let me know! Please CBM, make this possible in
a future release of the OS...
Also, the lower border frame, if not using a scroll bar, should be
four pixels high - white, blue, blue and black. That is, in hires
interlace. Please CBM, make a TAG_ITEM: WA_SquareBorder...
Now the screen should look much nicer, with a screen and window font
as Times 18 and gadget texts with Helvetica 15 bold (just an
example). But if you look at Windows and Macintosh GUI you notice
that they have 3D-gadgets with four colours: black, white, light grey
and dark grey. The black is used as a frame and the dark grey instead
of black. This is very tasty, indeed. The Amiga four colour WB is fast
but it should be at least eight colours to allow better looking gadgets
and icons. You can set this with Screen mode prefs, but no dark grey
colour is reserved! This must be done by CBM. Please CBM, reserv WB
pen 4 (if using a more-than-four-colour WB) to be used as dark grey in
user gadgets (and future system gadgets)...
Yet another problem is that to many app's is using grey as the
background colour. This looks good in a requester and *some* windows.
But an editor (or something like that) should have a white background
for better readability. However, if you just set the background pen
to white then the white SHINEPEN can not be distinguished from the
background. I have tried several solutions to this and think that
drawing a black line above and to the left of the bottom and right
border looks best, even when using grey as background colour. By
using a black line (some app's uses a grey line) you gain another
thing - four colour gadgets with a black frame can be placed directly
to all borders.
String gadgets should also have a white background (my opinion and GUIs
like NextStep, Windows and Macintosh), not a 3D frame on a grey back-
ground as currently used. The string gadget should either have a simple
black frame or preferably be recessed with a dark grey/white frame sur-
ronding the black frame. 'Pullup menus' for predefined choices (like
Windos and Macintosh) should be used when appropriate.
Most of the above complaints of the Amiga GUI can be fixed by the
app' programmers without breaking the system. But I would like to see
that CBM encourages this by making better looking WB utilities and by
making a better gadtool library to make this easier to implement for
the programmer. The Gadtool library should not use fixed pixel
positions and sizing of gadgets but instead an abstract scale that
adjusts for different font sizes and screen resolutions.
My last complaint will be the Amiga Workbench. Why is there no
support for keyboard shortcuts except for menyitems? Look at
Macintosh system 7.0, where you can use the cursor keys to select
icons or by typing the first characters of the name among other
functions. This makes the WB easier to use for us who don't like
messing around with the mouse all the time. The WB should also be
supplied with a different set of icons for hires interlace (and more
colours than four). Not necessarily twice as high but a bit higher
and a bit less wide - simply good looking quite square sized icons.
Please Commodore, make good looking Applications and a good looking
WB *THE* Amiga GUI standard not just a distant possibility.
--
Pahl (wad) Melin d90pa...@und.ida.liu.se
Ryds Alle 11:108 //
S-582 51 Linkoping // "Only Amiga makes it possible"
Sweden \x/
Path: sparky!uunet!munnari.oz.au!goanna!minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au!s915426
From: s915...@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Leanne Taylor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Please CBM, get serious!
Message-ID: <1992Apr23.154513.27649@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au>
Date: 23 Apr 92 20:45:13 GMT
References: <1992Apr21.123747.2308@ida.liu.se>
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia.
Lines: 40
d90pa...@odalix.ida.liu.se (Pahl Melin) writes:
>My last complaint will be the Amiga Workbench. Why is there no
>support for keyboard shortcuts except for menyitems? Look at
>Macintosh system 7.0, where you can use the cursor keys to select
>icons or by typing the first characters of the name among other
>functions. This makes the WB easier to use for us who don't like
>messing around with the mouse all the time. The WB should also be
>supplied with a different set of icons for hires interlace (and more
>colours than four). Not necessarily twice as high but a bit higher
>and a bit less wide - simply good looking quite square sized icons.
You have been able to use a keyboard shortcut instead of the mouse
since The Amiga was first released, or at leaset since when the
introducing the amiga was first shipped with the amiga 1000..
Simply press the Right-Amiga + a cursor to move the mouse, add a shift
for a bigjump, and then left-amiga-alt = left button, right-amiga-alt = right button...
Justin
>Please Commodore, make good looking Applications and a good looking
>WB *THE* Amiga GUI standard not just a distant possibility.
>--
>Pahl (wad) Melin d90pa...@und.ida.liu.se
>Ryds Alle 11:108 //
>S-582 51 Linkoping // "Only Amiga makes it possible"
>Sweden \x/
--
+---------------------------------------+----------------------------------+
| These opinions are not mine but those | "Out, Vile Jelly" - King Lear |
| of my Fiance, Justin Deeley. | |
+---------------------------------------+----------------------------------+
| Mail Justin through me at : s915...@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Leanne Taylor) |
| Mail Justin Direct at : dwea...@phoenix.pub.uu.oz.au (Justin Deeley) |
| !eyrie!phoenix!dwea...@yarra.pyramid.com.au |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Amiga 3000 - The Choice of a new generation ! ;) |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: sparky!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!
utgpu!maccs!rickan
From: ric...@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Mark Rickan)
Subject: Re: Please CBM, get serious!
Message-ID: <1992Apr23.165402.24976@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca>
Organization: Department of Computer Science, McMaster University
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1992 16:54:02 GMT
Lines: 26
In article <1992Apr23.154513.27...@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au>
s915...@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Leanne Taylor) writes:
>>My last complaint will be the Amiga Workbench. Why is there no
>>support for keyboard shortcuts except for menyitems? Look at
>>Macintosh system 7.0, where you can use the cursor keys to select
>>icons or by typing the first characters of the name among other
>>functions...
>You have been able to use a keyboard shortcut instead of the mouse
>since The Amiga was first released, or at leaset since when the
>introducing the amiga was first shipped with the amiga 1000..
True enough. However, if I understand the original post correctly, there are
currently only limited provisions for using Workbench exclusively with keyboard
equivalents. It would be nice to have the option of hitting a function key to
call up the menu bar and to use the cursor keys to navigate though the menu
selections. Another convenience would be to allow for hitting 'ESC' to cancel
a requestor or to hit <RETURN> to confirm an action.
Mark
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
= Mark Rickan ...!uunet!utai!utgpu!maccs!rickan =
= DCSS, McMaster University ric...@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Path: sparky!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!mbs110
Organization: The Leader Desslok School of Diplomacy
Date: Thursday, 23 Apr 1992 16:21:07 EDT
From: Norman St. John Polevaulter <MBS...@psuvm.psu.edu>
Message-ID: <92114.162107MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Please CBM, get serious!
References: <1992Apr23.165402.24976@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca>
Lines: 28
In article <1992Apr23.165402.24...@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca>,
ric...@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Mark Rickan) says:
>True enough. However, if I understand the original post correctly, there are
>currently only limited provisions for using Workbench exclusively with
>keyboard
>equivalents. It would be nice to have the option of hitting a function key to
>call up the menu bar and to use the cursor keys to navigate though the menu
>selections. Another convenience would be to allow for hitting 'ESC' to cancel
>a requestor or to hit <RETURN> to confirm an action.
You can! There are public domain utilities that allow both of these, if I
recall right. ESC and RETURN in requesters are provided as part of
ARQ, the Animated ReQuesters package (which is mondo cool besides, when
you install it it replaces those boring old System Requests with extremely
nicely drawn ANIMATED requesters, plus hooks to add sound effects to
the requesters. It's great!) I don't know the name of the function-key
menu program, but I do know there is one. (I don't use it as I don't
really see the need, plus it smacks too much of MessyDOS systems...)
Moral: Just 'cause Commodore isn't providing it doesn't mean it doesn't
exist, and as well doesn't necessarily mean Commodore is Doing Something
Wrong.
[Your blood pressure just went up.] Mark Sachs IS: mbs...@psuvm.psu.edu
DISCLAIMER: Penn State cares about my money, not my opinions.
"All my father wanted to do was make a toaster you could really set the
darkness on -- and you perverted his work into those horrible machines!"
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cbmger!peterk
From: pet...@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Please CBM, get serious!
Message-ID: <121@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com>
Date: 27 Apr 92 13:11:33 GMT
References: <1992Apr24.150935.22138@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca>
Reply-To: pet...@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Organization: Commodore Germany
Lines: 38
In article <1992Apr24.150935.22...@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca>
ric...@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Mark Rickan) writes:
>In article <92114.162107MBS...@psuvm.psu.edu> MBS...@psuvm.psu.edu
>(Norman St. John Polevaulter) writes:
>>>It would be nice to have the option of hitting a function key to
>>>call up the menu bar and to use the cursor keys to navigate though the menu
>>>selections. Another convenience would be to allow for hitting 'ESC' to cancel
>>>a requestor or to hit <RETURN> to confirm an action.
>
>>You can! There are public domain utilities that allow both of these, if I
>>recall right. ESC and RETURN in requesters are provided as part of
>>ARQ, the Animated ReQuesters package...
>
>I think that most people are aware of these alternatives and have some degree
>of access to these utilities. My point, and I believe that of the original
>post, is that some features should be integrated into the system, not
>retrofitted.
Well, Andy may perhaps step in and explain it better than me:
This is all a multitasking issue and they found after severe reconning (sp?)
that it wouldn't be a good idea to have these key shortcuts!
Consider the following scenario:
You write in one text editor some text, in the background some other app
is running. Now suddenly this app opens a requester and as usual, also
immediately activates this window. Now you just were at a paragraph break
in your text and hit Return. Puff! Without recognizing, you have made a
potentially very severe decision to acknowledge that requester!
So the conclusion was to introduce shortcuts for Cancel and Ok that don't
occur in normal typing (also Esc is a common key e.g. in MEmacs), such as
L-Amiga+V and L-Amiga+B.
You see, this type of ideas is always great on a singletasking machine,
but in a multitasking environment, you have to be much more aware of
potential side effects.
--
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
or pet...@public.sub.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
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torrie
From: tor...@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie)
Subject: Background requesters
Message-ID: <torrie.704957163@Xenon.Stanford.EDU>
Originator: tor...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Sender: n...@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
References: <1992Apr24.150935.22138@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca>
<121@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com>
Date: 4 May 92 05:26:03 GMT
Lines: 16
pet...@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany) writes:
>You write in one text editor some text, in the background some other app
>is running. Now suddenly this app opens a requester and as usual, also
>immediately activates this window. Now you just were at a paragraph break
>in your text and hit Return. Puff! Without recognizing, you have made a
>potentially very severe decision to acknowledge that requester!
Maybe it should just be changed so that the requester doesn't come to
the front, and instead you have some sort of notification system that
a requester is waiting to be handled.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Torrie. Stanford University, Class of 199? tor...@cs.stanford.edu
Embrace rationalism, reject superstition.
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sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ira.uka.de!smurf.sub.org!public!peterk
From: pet...@public.sub.org (Peter Kittel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Background requesters
Message-ID: <1992May04.181413.21474@public.sub.org>
Date: 4 May 92 18:14:13 GMT
References: <1992Apr24.150935.22138@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca>
<121@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com> <torrie.704957163@Xenon.Stanford.EDU>
Organization: Public News & Mailserver, Commodore Germany PM UNIX, Frankfurt
Lines: 23
tor...@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) writes:
>pet...@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany) writes:
>>You write in one text editor some text, in the background some other app
>>is running. Now suddenly this app opens a requester and as usual, also
>>immediately activates this window. Now you just were at a paragraph break
>>in your text and hit Return. Puff! Without recognizing, you have made a
>>potentially very severe decision to acknowledge that requester!
> Maybe it should just be changed so that the requester doesn't come to
>the front, and instead you have some sort of notification system that
>a requester is waiting to be handled.
Nah, a requester is by definition a means to demand *immediate* response
by the user, else the programmer would choose something different than
a requester. And to catch the eye of the user, it should open in the
foreground and not allow other activities.
--
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel // E-Mail to \\ Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
or pet...@public.sub.org