Path: sparky!uunet!spool.mu.edu!caen!nic.umass.edu!cis.umassd.edu!ulowell!
tegra!amicol!Paula_Lieberman
From: Paula_Lieber...@amicol.UUCP (Paula Lieberman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTStep/486
Message-ID: <Paula_Lieberman.053m@amicol.UUCP>
Date: 20 May 92 03:25:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: amicol.Paula_Lieberman.053m
Organization: Amiga Colony BBS
Lines: 6
Some market research company or other indicated that something like 19,200
NeXts were shipped in 1991... k not exactly the world's bestselling
computer.....
-- Via DLG Pro v0.991
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: sparky!uunet!gatech!psuvax1!news
From: mell...@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger)
Subject: Re: NeXTStep/486
In-Reply-To: Paula_Lieberman@amicol.UUCP's message of 20 May 92 03:25:15 GMT
Message-ID: <BoKIxu.5GK@cs.psu.edu>
Sender: n...@cs.psu.edu (Usenet)
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Organization: Penn State Computer Science
References: <Paula_Lieberman.053m@amicol.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1992 21:13:05 GMT
Lines: 31
In article <Paula_Lieberman.0...@amicol.UUCP> Paula_Lieber...@amicol.UUCP
(Paula Lieberman) writes:
Some market research company or other indicated that something like 19,200
NeXts were shipped in 1991... k not exactly the world's bestselling
computer.....
There were approximately 39,000 NeXTs sold as of January 1992.
Currently I hear that NeXT is selling at a rate of around 30,000/year.
The number of NeXTstep machines should increase later this when
NeXTstep/486 (and 586) becomes available. Also, the introduction of
the RISC NeXT later this year should also greatly significantly
increase sells. The RISC NeXT will be based on the Motorola 88110,
and it will be 3 to 4 times faster than the current 25MHz 68040
NeXTstation. This will make it 9 to 12 times faster than the Amiga
3000.
Btw, the number of computers sold doesn't necessarily mean a lot. Sun
has only sold 500,000 SPARCstations and Commodore has sold 3 million
Amigas. Which company has gained a better foothold in the business
market? Many of the Amigas sold are the $500 Amiga 500s, a fine
machine for the price, but it's not a business machine. NeXT and Sun
won't sell you a computer for less than $5000.
Finally, if we were interested in buying the world's best selling
computer then we'd all own PC clones. Most of us are more interested
in buying the world's best computer (NOTE: our views may differ here.
:-))
-Mike
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: sparky!uunet!think.com!mintaka.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-picayune.mit.edu!
athena.mit.edu!fihsu
From: fi...@athena.mit.edu (Hsu I-wei)
Subject: Re: NeXTStep/486
Message-ID: <1992May20.232022.394@athena.mit.edu>
Sender: n...@athena.mit.edu (News system)
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References: <Paula_Lieberman.053m@amicol.UUCP> <BoKIxu.5GK@cs.psu.edu>
Date: Wed, 20 May 1992 23:20:22 GMT
Lines: 25
In article <BoKIxu....@cs.psu.edu> mell...@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger)
writes:
>
>In article <Paula_Lieberman.0...@amicol.UUCP> Paula_Lieber...@amicol.UUCP
(Paula Lieberman) writes:
>
> Some market research company or other indicated that something like 19,200
> NeXts were shipped in 1991... k not exactly the world's bestselling
> computer.....
>
>There were approximately 39,000 NeXTs sold as of January 1992.
>Currently I hear that NeXT is selling at a rate of around 30,000/year.
>The number of NeXTstep machines should increase later this when
>NeXTstep/486 (and 586) becomes available. Also, the introduction of
>the RISC NeXT later this year should also greatly significantly
>increase sells. The RISC NeXT will be based on the Motorola 88110,
>and it will be 3 to 4 times faster than the current 25MHz 68040
>NeXTstation. This will make it 9 to 12 times faster than the Amiga
>3000.
Has NeXT announced that there will be a RISC NeXTstation by the end of this
year, or are you speculating? Any predictions on what the base price of it
will be?
Francis
Path: sparky!uunet!haven.umd.edu!darwin.sura.net!mips!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!
ukma!psuvax1!news
From: mell...@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTStep/486
Message-ID: <BoKu0C.DBI@cs.psu.edu>
Date: 21 May 92 01:12:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.BoKu0C.DBI
References: <Paula_Lieberman.053m@amicol.UUCP> <BoKIxu.5GK@cs.psu.edu>
<1992May20.232022.394@athena.mit.edu>
Sender: n...@cs.psu.edu (Usenet)
Organization: Penn State Computer Science
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In-Reply-To: fihsu@athena.mit.edu's message of Wed, 20 May 1992 23:20:22 GMT
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In article <1992May20.232022....@athena.mit.edu> fi...@athena.mit.edu (Hsu I-wei)
writes:
Has NeXT announced that there will be a RISC NeXTstation by the end
of this year, or are you speculating? Any predictions on what the
base price of it will be?
NeXT has not made any formal announcement. However, if they don't
have their RISC machine out by January, they will be in serious
trouble because Sun, HP, SGI and DEC all have their next generation
machines out, announced, or on the way.
NeXT is currently waiting for the 88110 to be released, and from what
I hear it will be out by late summer.
The only prices of which I've heard is $10,000 for a dual 88110 box
(150 mips) with 32 bit color graphics (24 bit color + 8 bit alpha). I
would sincerely hope that NeXT will replace their $5K 040 boxes with
single processer 88110 boxes. Their current offering of 12 SPECmarks
for $5K is starting to look lame. 50 SPECmarks for $5K is what I'm
looking for.
-Mike
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: sparky!uunet!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!tacky.cs.olemiss.edu!skip
From: s...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: NeXTStep/486
Message-ID: <1992May21.025757.12185@ra.msstate.edu>
Sender: n...@ra.msstate.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Organization: Department of Computer Relics
References: <Paula_Lieberman.053m@amicol.UUCP> <BoKIxu.5GK@cs.psu.edu>
<1992May20.232022.394@athena.mit.edu> <BoKu0C.DBI@cs.psu.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 May 1992 02:57:57 GMT
Lines: 81
In article <BoKu0C....@cs.psu.edu> mell...@cs.psu.edu (Michael D Mellinger) writes:
>
>In article <1992May20.232022....@athena.mit.edu> fi...@athena.mit.edu (Hsu I-wei)
writes:
>
> Has NeXT announced that there will be a RISC NeXTstation by the end
> of this year, or are you speculating? Any predictions on what the
> base price of it will be?
>
>NeXT has not made any formal announcement. However, if they don't
>have their RISC machine out by January, they will be in serious
>trouble because Sun, HP, SGI and DEC all have their next generation
>machines out, announced, or on the way.
Ironically, many Amiga advocates feel the same way about Commodore if
an 040 machine is not out soon. A 25MHz 040 box would be about 2 years
behind NeXT, maybe a year behind Apple. C= hasn't got the first 040
box out of the door while NeXT and Apple are on their second generation...
>NeXT is currently waiting for the 88110 to be released, and from what
>I hear it will be out by late summer.
I don't know what the hell Commodore is waiting for, but whatever it is
probably won't be out by the end of the decade.
>The only prices of which I've heard is $10,000 for a dual 88110 box
>(150 mips) with 32 bit color graphics (24 bit color + 8 bit alpha). I
>would sincerely hope that NeXT will replace their $5K 040 boxes with
>single processer 88110 boxes. Their current offering of 12 SPECmarks
>for $5K is starting to look lame. 50 SPECmarks for $5K is what I'm
>looking for.
Sheesh. Commodore doesn't even have a machine that approaches 12 MIPS,
SPECmarks, or MFlops, and the majority of their machines cannot even
handle 12MHz or 12Mbytes! The only thing that they do have is 12 bit
color, and that sucks!
Yeah, I'm in a bad f*cking mood right now. I made the stupid mistake of
reading a few of the magazines which promote other computers and then
reading AmigaWhirled. Why the hell do I feel like the Amiga is stuck
in a time warp or something? A few observations:
If the local bus video is all it is hyped up to be, a $2k clone is
going to blow the hell out of the Amiga's graphics.
We sit around hoping that the AA chipset (what the hell does AA mean,
Advanced Amiga or something?) will have 320x200 8 bit graphics, maybe
640x400 8 bit graphics, and maybe a 15 bit HAM mode. Why should we
settle for what is considered to be low-res by the rest of the world?
The PC architecture is by no means the best, but at least they are
trying to improve it and offer users a steady upgrade path. The same
can be said for the Mac, the NeXT, and practically every computer
company with the exception of Commodore and maybe Atari.
The Amiga is supposed to be a multi-media computer, but Commodore does
not even have a CD-ROM available. CDTV does not count as I cannot use
it with my A3000 and I see no reason to buy a slower Amiga.
Although I do not play many games, I might if there were a few that
were just cheezy imported shoot-em-ups. Take a look at some of the
titles for the PC and you'll see what the true game machine is.
Many of the titles that were once the pride and joy of the Amiga
community have been ported to the PC and Mac. What's worse is that
the Amiga versions are sometimes updated on a less frequent basis
than the ports.
The Amiga, for all of its wonders, it at the trailing edge of
computer technology. By the time that Commodore has a machine with
an 040, high density floppies, >6 bit graphics, RTG/DIG, etc., the
rest of the world will have moved along even further.
If you find this post upsetting, think about what it is that upsets you.
Is it my bitching and moaning or is it the realization that what I am
saying is what you are thinking?
Amiga - The world's most affordable computer. You'll never have to spend
any more money on it because there are no upgrades available!
Skip Sauls // Grouchy & Pissed Off Amiga Owner
s...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu \X/ Department of Computer Relics
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: sparky!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!marlin.jcu.edu.au!cpca
From: c...@marlin.jcu.edu.au (Colin Adams)
Subject: The Amiga is being left behind...
Message-ID: <1992May21.053652.19042@marlin.jcu.edu.au>
Summary: nothing new here
Organization: James Cook University, North Queensland
References: <1992May20.232022.394@athena.mit.edu> <BoKu0C.DBI@cs.psu.edu>
<1992May21.025757.12185@ra.msstate.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 May 92 05:36:52 GMT
Lines: 81
In article <1992May21.025757.12...@ra.msstate.edu> s...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
(Skip Sauls) writes:
>I don't know what the hell Commodore is waiting for, but whatever it is
>probably won't be out by the end of the decade.
They will probably have come up with fifty new products, none of which
managment will decide to release. I wonder how long it will be before
2.1 appears.
>Why the hell do I feel like the Amiga is stuck
>in a time warp or something? A few observations:
>
> If the local bus video is all it is hyped up to be, a $2k clone is
> going to blow the hell out of the Amiga's graphics.
Exactly. Finally VGA and therefore Windows and OS/2, will be a lot faster.
> We sit around hoping that the AA chipset (what the hell does AA mean,
> Advanced Amiga or something?) will have 320x200 8 bit graphics, maybe
> 640x400 8 bit graphics, and maybe a 15 bit HAM mode. Why should we
> settle for what is considered to be low-res by the rest of the world?
C= are trapped by the very architecture that made it unique in the first
place. The need for custom chips to run the display may give us
smooth scrolling, multiple screens etc., but it limits the ability
to upgrade the chipset. A simple display like VGA can use a gate
array, while C= have to design 100 MHz graphic processors to give us
similar abilities. If the Amiga is going to catch up with the rest
of the world, we must scrap a lot of the features we liked in the first
place. C= do not have the ability to design graphics chips that even the
likes of Moto and Intel would find challenging.
They probably don't have the facilities to
produce the chips themselves either. A high cost fabrication process
would be needed for the sorts of chips we want.
The Amiga architecture must change if it is going to improve. We will
have to get used to the idea of only having a single screen, and without
smooth scrolling etc. C= might be able to give us 640x480 in 8 bit
colour with these abilities soon, but the rest of the world moves on.
RTG and DIG are going to be VERY important. Unfortunately a lot of
existing software will break.
> The PC architecture is by no means the best, but at least they are
> trying to improve it and offer users a steady upgrade path. The same
> can be said for the Mac, the NeXT, and practically every computer
> company with the exception of Commodore and maybe Atari.
With local bus video and hardrives, the PC arch is going to be quite
good. The operating systems are improving dramatically too. They may
require more memory, but the density of RAM chips is constantly improving.
> The Amiga is supposed to be a multi-media computer, but Commodore does
> not even have a CD-ROM available. CDTV does not count as I cannot use
> it with my A3000 and I see no reason to buy a slower Amiga.
I'd like to see the sales figures for the CDTV. They don't seem to
be selling that great. C= do not even have them in K-Mart where the
500 is sold. The idea of selling them in general purpose stores next
to hi-fi equipment (a good one) doesn't seem to have worked. Note that
this is in Australia where the Amiga does quite well.
>If you find this post upsetting, think about what it is that upsets you.
>Is it my bitching and moaning or is it the realization that what I am
>saying is what you are thinking?
The post was only upsetting in that another former Amiga advocate has
woken up to the world around them.
>Amiga - The world's most affordable computer. You'll never have to spend
>any more money on it because there are no upgrades available!
Wait for a Windows NT machine. I know I am. I can almost smell the
R4000 burning. Hopefully NEC will produce low cost versions.
>Skip Sauls // Grouchy & Pissed Off Amiga Owner
>s...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu \X/ Department of Computer Relics
--
Colin Adams Honours Student - James Cook University of North Queensland
"In case of doubt, make it sound convincing"
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magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.ysu.edu!psuvm!mbs110
From: MBS...@psuvm.psu.edu (Norman St. John Polevaulter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Amiga is being left behind...
Message-ID: <92142.141957MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu>
Date: 21 May 92 18:19:57 GMT
References: <1992May20.232022.394@athena.mit.edu> <BoKu0C.DBI@cs.psu.edu>
<1992May21.025757.12185@ra.msstate.edu>
<1992May21.053652.19042@marlin.jcu.edu.au>
Organization: The Leader Desslok School of Diplomacy
Lines: 29
I just wanted to complain about one item in this post.
>> We sit around hoping that the AA chipset (what the hell does AA mean,
>> Advanced Amiga or something?) will have 320x200 8 bit graphics, maybe
>> 640x400 8 bit graphics, and maybe a 15 bit HAM mode. Why should we
>> settle for what is considered to be low-res by the rest of the world?
BZZT! That is not "considered low-res by the rest of the world"! That, for
your information, is in fact slightly better than the VGA standard!
All too common in c.s.a.advocacy, assuming that the rest of the world is
using Sparcstations and Color NeXTs and 24bit Mac Quadras and SVGA '586
machines, and laughing up their sleeves at our puny Amiga 500s.
WRONG.
The rest of the world is using Mac Classics and IBM 386SX/VGA machines.
The (rumored) AA chip set competes beautifully here. Hell, Amigas with the
current chip set and a bottom-of-the-line 68000 put in a strong showing --
perhaps this points out the inherent superiority of the Amiga architecture,
nu?
[Your blood pressure just went up.] Mark Sachs IS: mbs...@psuvm.psu.edu
DISCLAIMER: Penn State only cares about things that are green and fold easily.
"Don't panic!"
"I'm not panicking. I'm watching you panic. It's much more entertaining."
(Not that I wouldn't like something better than AA even MORE -- but I like
the AA specs just fine, thanks.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: sparky!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!gblock
From: gbl...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Subject: Re: NeXTStep/486
Message-ID: <1992May22.004149.24043@uwm.edu>
Sender: n...@uwm.edu (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
References: <1992May21.025757.12185@ra.msstate.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1992 00:41:49 GMT
Lines: 149
s...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
: Ironically, many Amiga advocates feel the same way about Commodore if
: an 040 machine is not out soon. A 25MHz 040 box would be about 2 years
: behind NeXT, maybe a year behind Apple. C= hasn't got the first 040
: box out of the door while NeXT and Apple are on their second generation...
True. However, accelerators on the Mac aren't nearly as prevalent or
as well-designed as in the Amiga market, where there has always been
room for such things.
: I don't know what the hell Commodore is waiting for, but whatever it is
: probably won't be out by the end of the decade.
I think you could be wrong. Even if I didn't know better, I'd say
that 8 years would be a long time... And if you think THAT
off-the-wall imaginary comment you made is a little unbelievable, you
should see the REST of what you wrote. ;)
: Sheesh. Commodore doesn't even have a machine that approaches 12 MIPS,
: SPECmarks, or MFlops, and the majority of their machines cannot even
: handle 12MHz or 12Mbytes! The only thing that they do have is 12 bit
: color, and that sucks!
Actually, you don't even have that. :) Anyways, the 3000 can handle
a hell of a lot more than 12MHz or 12MB (That's twelve Marc Barretts,
for those not in-the-know...). True, their most prevalent base
systems are all ~8mhz 68000 based systems. And? Apple and C= are
really centered towards two different markets. Besides the fact that
high-end machines DO exist for both, the fact that C= lacks an 040
machine is important, but it will NOT be the death of the company.
The A600 is the kind of machine that is the bread-and-butter of C=,
while the Ci is the kind of machine that is the bread-and-butter of Apple.
: Yeah, I'm in a bad f*cking mood right now. I made the stupid mistake of
Gee, we couldn't tell. :)
: reading a few of the magazines which promote other computers and then
: reading AmigaWhirled. Why the hell do I feel like the Amiga is stuck
: in a time warp or something? A few observations:
A few comments...
: If the local bus video is all it is hyped up to be, a $2k clone is
: going to blow the hell out of the Amiga's graphics.
Get real. It's just what it sounds--hype. It's a definite
improvement over VGA, but it's not the end-all be-all of graphic
systems. The mac has had "localbus" for a long time, it's just hype.
: We sit around hoping that the AA chipset (what the hell does AA mean,
: Advanced Amiga or something?) will have 320x200 8 bit graphics, maybe
: 640x400 8 bit graphics, and maybe a 15 bit HAM mode. Why should we
: settle for what is considered to be low-res by the rest of the world?
Probably because VGA doesn't get the kind of frame-rates we've come to
expect from the Amiga. Low-res has always been able to push >30fps.
Always. On 68000 systems, that's no small feat. Even on 68030 systems
that's no small feat. I believe that if we DO end up with a
320x200x8, it'll be able to move at speeds VGA can't handle. And
that's always been one of the important things about the Amiga. It's
one of the reasons it's considered by many to be the ultimate
multimedia machine... Fast, good graphics. Good sound. And good
software in the video market.
: The PC architecture is by no means the best, but at least they are
: trying to improve it and offer users a steady upgrade path. The same
: can be said for the Mac, the NeXT, and practically every computer
: company with the exception of Commodore and maybe Atari.
Actually, no. If you'd look carefully, you'd see that the ZorroIII
competes better than any available bus on PC's, and it blows the hell
out of EISA and MCA systems. More importantly, unlike EISA, your
whole subsystem isn't shot to hell when you add a Zorro II card.
: The Amiga is supposed to be a multi-media computer, but Commodore does
: not even have a CD-ROM available. CDTV does not count as I cannot use
: it with my A3000 and I see no reason to buy a slower Amiga.
And yet multimedia lives on with the Amiga, even without a CD player.
CD-ROM is not NECESSARILY the end-all be-all of Multimedia. And CD
players do exist that interface with the amiga, software does exist
that will utilize it. It's why 3rd party stuff exists--it fills a gap
between what is there and what is needed.
: Although I do not play many games, I might if there were a few that
: were just cheezy imported shoot-em-ups. Take a look at some of the
: titles for the PC and you'll see what the true game machine is.
I have. Frankly, I've seen what's available for the CDTV, and prefer
IT. I've seen Psygnosis stuff on my Amiga, and though I've always
thought it's too hard for me, I've enjoyed playing them.
I'm not a games fanatic either, but I do believe that the Amiga has
and is and will be for some time one of the best platforms for them.
: Many of the titles that were once the pride and joy of the Amiga
: community have been ported to the PC and Mac. What's worse is that
: the Amiga versions are sometimes updated on a less frequent basis
: than the ports.
I can't think of one "port" that wasn't better on the original. Games
designed on and for the Amiga have always been the Amiga's pride and
joy. The chipset in correct hands can do wondrous things. :)
: The Amiga, for all of its wonders, it at the trailing edge of
: computer technology. By the time that Commodore has a machine with
: an 040, high density floppies, >6 bit graphics, RTG/DIG, etc., the
: rest of the world will have moved along even further.
And yet they still haven't done what we've already got--True, fast
multitasking with low memory requirements. Graphics that can move at
speeds >30fps (at which speeds, depth becomes less necessary, as shown
by NTSC itself...), built-in audio capabilities across the entire
Amiga platform to which only the newest of soundboard capabilities can
even compare to and which take up far fewer cpu resources than the
competition... Things that haven't changed, but the "competition"
still doesn't have, and can't offer.
: If you find this post upsetting, think about what it is that upsets you.
: Is it my bitching and moaning or is it the realization that what I am
: saying is what you are thinking?
What if we don't find your post upsetting? Maybe it's seen as someone
doing just what you said? Blowing up because they're tired of reading
of improvements in other systems when the full potentials of their own
computer's capabilites go unnoticed by those outside the Amiga's
realm? I don't see what you posted as the truth, or a lie. It's an
opinion, one taken from a person who's fed up with not seeing the
kinds of improvements that one was looking for.
: Amiga - The world's most affordable computer. You'll never have to spend
: any more money on it because there are no upgrades available!
IBM - The world's most expensive computer. Every six months it's
time for a motherboard exchange.
Atari - The world's most non-existent computer. :) After all,
falcons are about as scarce as the condor...
Apple - The world's most expensive toaster-dongle. :)
Relax, all this stress is going to kill you. -Greg
--
"Have you come here to play Jesus with the lepers in your head?" -U2, ONE
"I watched those children jump in the tall grass, leap the sprinkler..." REM
"Sushi is bad... READ MY LUNCH!!! A thousand bits of fish..." -George Bush
gbl...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu Gregory R. Block
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: sparky!uunet!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!tacky.cs.olemiss.edu!skip
From: s...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: The Amiga is being left behind...
Message-ID: <1992May22.025355.1769@ra.msstate.edu>
Sender: n...@ra.msstate.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
References: <1992May20.232022.394@athena.mit.edu> <BoKu0C.DBI@cs.psu.edu>
<1992May21.025757.12185@ra.msstate.edu> <1992May21.053652.19042@marlin.jcu.edu.au>
<92142.141957MBS110@psuvm.psu.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1992 02:53:55 GMT
Lines: 71
In article <92142.141957MBS...@psuvm.psu.edu> Norman St. John Polevaulter
<MBS...@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>I just wanted to complain about one item in this post.
>
>>> We sit around hoping that the AA chipset (what the hell does AA mean,
>>> Advanced Amiga or something?) will have 320x200 8 bit graphics, maybe
>>> 640x400 8 bit graphics, and maybe a 15 bit HAM mode. Why should we
>>> settle for what is considered to be low-res by the rest of the world?
>
>BZZT! That is not "considered low-res by the rest of the world"! That, for
>your information, is in fact slightly better than the VGA standard!
With SVGA cards in the $100.00 range, I'd bet that it will be the new
"standard" before long, if not already. I use a Tseng SVGA board that
cost $115 and wish like hell I could have graphics like that in my
A3000. 800x600 32k color mode beats the hell out of 320x400 HAM mode...
>All too common in c.s.a.advocacy, assuming that the rest of the world is
>using Sparcstations and Color NeXTs and 24bit Mac Quadras and SVGA '586
>machines, and laughing up their sleeves at our puny Amiga 500s.
I really don't give a damn about what the rest of the world is laughing
at, but I do know what the rest of the world is able to use if they
so desire...
>WRONG.
Maybe, maybe not.
>The rest of the world is using Mac Classics and IBM 386SX/VGA machines.
>The (rumored) AA chip set competes beautifully here. Hell, Amigas with the
>current chip set and a bottom-of-the-line 68000 put in a strong showing --
>perhaps this points out the inherent superiority of the Amiga architecture,
>nu?
Can you not see that this is why I and others are so frustrated? When
I decided to invest in the Amiga back in 1986, I was investing in the
entire machine, not the damn custom chips. Is it so unreasonable to
expect an improvement in the very things that were once the Amiga's
greatest strengths?
>(Not that I wouldn't like something better than AA even MORE -- but I like
> the AA specs just fine, thanks.)
I honestly don't have a clue as to what the AA specs are, but the
rumors do little to assure me. I'd be happier than the proverbial
clam if C= would finally release the damn things, but I worry that
the wait may be rather long.
Amiga owner tried and true,
Wanted to upgrade to something new.
More colors, more resolution, more MHz, more voices,
Looked high, looked low, but didn't see no choices!
Where's the Ranger, the 4000, or even the AA?
With no hope in sight, why should I stay?
The 600, the CDTV, don't they contend?
Yes, but quite frankly, I don't want low-end.
I've advocated the Amiga to many through the years,
But I realize now that it fell on deaf ears.
Will I stay, will I leave, I don't really know,
But it may soon come time to go with the flow.
The above sucks as poetry, but what the hell...
Skip Sauls
s...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: sparky!uunet!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!tacky.cs.olemiss.edu!skip
From: s...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: Re: NeXTStep/486
Message-ID: <1992May22.033933.9907@ra.msstate.edu>
Sender: n...@ra.msstate.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
References: <1992May21.025757.12185@ra.msstate.edu> <1992May22.004149.24043@uwm.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1992 03:39:33 GMT
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In article <1992May22.004149.24...@uwm.edu> gbl...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
writes:
>s...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>: Ironically, many Amiga advocates feel the same way about Commodore if
>: an 040 machine is not out soon. A 25MHz 040 box would be about 2 years
>: behind NeXT, maybe a year behind Apple. C= hasn't got the first 040
>: box out of the door while NeXT and Apple are on their second generation...
>
>True. However, accelerators on the Mac aren't nearly as prevalent or
>as well-designed as in the Amiga market, where there has always been
>room for such things.
I don't see any Zorro III multi-processor 040 boards for the Amiga...
>: I don't know what the hell Commodore is waiting for, but whatever it is
>: probably won't be out by the end of the decade.
>
>I think you could be wrong. Even if I didn't know better, I'd say
>that 8 years would be a long time... And if you think THAT
>off-the-wall imaginary comment you made is a little unbelievable, you
>should see the REST of what you wrote. ;)
Believe it or not, I wasn't even drunk when I wrote it. Hell, I
should probably be drinking a beer instead of posting news, but
lately I've become a glutton for punishment. :-)
>: Sheesh. Commodore doesn't even have a machine that approaches 12 MIPS,
>: SPECmarks, or MFlops, and the majority of their machines cannot even
>: handle 12MHz or 12Mbytes! The only thing that they do have is 12 bit
>: color, and that sucks!
>
>Actually, you don't even have that. :) Anyways, the 3000 can handle
>a hell of a lot more than 12MHz or 12MB (That's twelve Marc Barretts,
>for those not in-the-know...). True, their most prevalent base
>systems are all ~8mhz 68000 based systems. And? Apple and C= are
>really centered towards two different markets. Besides the fact that
>high-end machines DO exist for both, the fact that C= lacks an 040
>machine is important, but it will NOT be the death of the company.
No, it probably won't be. I've got an A3000, but I bought it on the
assumption that C= had some sort of plans for the high-end. I think
that it is great that the low-end Amigas offer a lot of bang for the
buck/pound/mark/etc., but I'm not going to buy one. Apple is selling
a ton of its low-end machines, yet they still manage to develop for
the high-end.
>The A600 is the kind of machine that is the bread-and-butter of C=,
>while the Ci is the kind of machine that is the bread-and-butter of Apple.
So Commodore is the Yugo of the computer world?
>: Yeah, I'm in a bad f*cking mood right now. I made the stupid mistake of
>
>Gee, we couldn't tell. :)
But I feel so much better now that I've let my frustration out. I
might even be able to stand another few years without a new set of
custom chips. :-)
>: reading a few of the magazines which promote other computers and then
>: reading AmigaWhirled. Why the hell do I feel like the Amiga is stuck
>: in a time warp or something? A few observations:
>
>A few comments...
>
>: If the local bus video is all it is hyped up to be, a $2k clone is
>: going to blow the hell out of the Amiga's graphics.
>
>Get real. It's just what it sounds--hype. It's a definite
>improvement over VGA, but it's not the end-all be-all of graphic
>systems. The mac has had "localbus" for a long time, it's just hype.
Maybe, but at least they are making improvements.
>: We sit around hoping that the AA chipset (what the hell does AA mean,
>: Advanced Amiga or something?) will have 320x200 8 bit graphics, maybe
>: 640x400 8 bit graphics, and maybe a 15 bit HAM mode. Why should we
>: settle for what is considered to be low-res by the rest of the world?
>
>Probably because VGA doesn't get the kind of frame-rates we've come to
>expect from the Amiga. Low-res has always been able to push >30fps.
>Always. On 68000 systems, that's no small feat. Even on 68030 systems
>that's no small feat. I believe that if we DO end up with a
>320x200x8, it'll be able to move at speeds VGA can't handle. And
>that's always been one of the important things about the Amiga. It's
>one of the reasons it's considered by many to be the ultimate
>multimedia machine... Fast, good graphics. Good sound. And good
>software in the video market.
Stock VGA maybe, but you should see the animations on the Tseng SVGA
board that I use at work. The video board, 486-33, 20M RAM, 200M HD,
monitor, mouse, and ethernet card cost less than my A3000 with 6M,
52M HD, monitor, ethernet card, and stock Amiga graphics. Jerry S.
was right about setting the thing up correctly, the graphic updates
are very fast, even at 1024x768x256. A sound card is cheap and the
software will follow the hardware.
>
>: The PC architecture is by no means the best, but at least they are
>: trying to improve it and offer users a steady upgrade path. The same
>: can be said for the Mac, the NeXT, and practically every computer
>: company with the exception of Commodore and maybe Atari.
>
>Actually, no. If you'd look carefully, you'd see that the ZorroIII
>competes better than any available bus on PC's, and it blows the hell
>out of EISA and MCA systems. More importantly, unlike EISA, your
>whole subsystem isn't shot to hell when you add a Zorro II card.
Hey, I agree that Zorro III is great, but that is not the only thing
that is commonly upgraded. The CPU, graphics, and sound are what made
the Amiga appealing, but there have been few improvements.
>: The Amiga is supposed to be a multi-media computer, but Commodore does
>: not even have a CD-ROM available. CDTV does not count as I cannot use
>: it with my A3000 and I see no reason to buy a slower Amiga.
>
>And yet multimedia lives on with the Amiga, even without a CD player.
>CD-ROM is not NECESSARILY the end-all be-all of Multimedia. And CD
>players do exist that interface with the amiga, software does exist
>that will utilize it. It's why 3rd party stuff exists--it fills a gap
>between what is there and what is needed.
Yet C= itself has stated that many CDTV titles will not work properly
on all CD-ROM drives. I am sure as hell not going to buy a drive
unless I am assured that the software will run.
>: Although I do not play many games, I might if there were a few that
>: were just cheezy imported shoot-em-ups. Take a look at some of the
>: titles for the PC and you'll see what the true game machine is.
>
>I have. Frankly, I've seen what's available for the CDTV, and prefer
>IT. I've seen Psygnosis stuff on my Amiga, and though I've always
>thought it's too hard for me, I've enjoyed playing them.
I've also seen the CDTV and agree that it is cool, but C= seems to
think that I should buy one of the damn things instead of selling me
a drive for my Amiga. I have an A3000, why in the world do I want a
slower Amiga?
>I'm not a games fanatic either, but I do believe that the Amiga has
>and is and will be for some time one of the best platforms for them.
Maybe, but when a 386 with SVGA and HD drops into the A500 territory,
you can bet that it will become the platform to develop for.
>: Many of the titles that were once the pride and joy of the Amiga
>: community have been ported to the PC and Mac. What's worse is that
>: the Amiga versions are sometimes updated on a less frequent basis
>: than the ports.
>
>I can't think of one "port" that wasn't better on the original. Games
>designed on and for the Amiga have always been the Amiga's pride and
>joy. The chipset in correct hands can do wondrous things. :)
For games, but I was thinking about some of the real apps.
>: The Amiga, for all of its wonders, it at the trailing edge of
>: computer technology. By the time that Commodore has a machine with
>: an 040, high density floppies, >6 bit graphics, RTG/DIG, etc., the
>: rest of the world will have moved along even further.
>
>And yet they still haven't done what we've already got--True, fast
>multitasking with low memory requirements. Graphics that can move at
>speeds >30fps (at which speeds, depth becomes less necessary, as shown
>by NTSC itself...), built-in audio capabilities across the entire
>Amiga platform to which only the newest of soundboard capabilities can
>even compare to and which take up far fewer cpu resources than the
>competition... Things that haven't changed, but the "competition"
>still doesn't have, and can't offer.
Cheap CPUs, memory, acclerated video cards, and steadily improving
software is going to leave the Amiga behind.
>: If you find this post upsetting, think about what it is that upsets you.
>: Is it my bitching and moaning or is it the realization that what I am
>: saying is what you are thinking?
>
>What if we don't find your post upsetting? Maybe it's seen as someone
>doing just what you said? Blowing up because they're tired of reading
>of improvements in other systems when the full potentials of their own
>computer's capabilites go unnoticed by those outside the Amiga's
>realm? I don't see what you posted as the truth, or a lie. It's an
>opinion, one taken from a person who's fed up with not seeing the
>kinds of improvements that one was looking for.
I'll keep looking for a while longer, but it seems that I'll need
to have the patience of Job.
>: Amiga - The world's most affordable computer. You'll never have to spend
>: any more money on it because there are no upgrades available!
>
>IBM - The world's most expensive computer. Every six months it's
>time for a motherboard exchange.
If I could get an 040 motherboard for $500, I'd sure as hell do it.
>Atari - The world's most non-existent computer. :) After all,
>falcons are about as scarce as the condor...
And nearly as extinct as the Abaq, whoops, I mean abacus.
>Apple - The world's most expensive toaster-dongle. :)
If you think about it, the real toaster-dongle is the Amiga. :-)
>Relax, all this stress is going to kill you. -Greg
Nah, if it gets too bad I'll just sell my Amiga, buy a 486, and
spend the remaining money on beer. :-)
Skip Sauls
s...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: sparky!uunet!caen!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!gblock
From: gbl...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Subject: Re: NeXTStep/486
Message-ID: <1992May22.071740.4112@uwm.edu>
Sender: n...@uwm.edu (USENET News System)
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
References: <1992May22.033933.9907@ra.msstate.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 May 1992 07:17:40 GMT
Lines: 175
s...@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
: I don't see any Zorro III multi-processor 040 boards for the Amiga...
Well, if you mean to use as a main processor, a Zorro III slot is NOT
the place to be putting that board. Also, the market for such would
be extremely small, so there's the question as to who will go out on a
limb to make it. And then there's the fact it would be simpler to use
other chips which can be integrated easier into such a setup... a
multiprocessing TI card comes to mind...
Anyways, that's not the point. The point is, if one were to come into
existence, (unlikely for the above two reasons), there'd be the
question of applications... You won't see it, I don't think. At
least not with an 040.
: Believe it or not, I wasn't even drunk when I wrote it. Hell, I
: should probably be drinking a beer instead of posting news, but
: lately I've become a glutton for punishment. :-)
In that case, have the beer. :)
: No, it probably won't be. I've got an A3000, but I bought it on the
: assumption that C= had some sort of plans for the high-end. I think
It would be a poor assumption to think that they DON'T have plans for
the high-end. Otherwise, they wouldn't have a group of engineers that
do mostly "high-end" work. And we all know one of them... :)
: that it is great that the low-end Amigas offer a lot of bang for the
: buck/pound/mark/etc., but I'm not going to buy one. Apple is selling
: a ton of its low-end machines, yet they still manage to develop for
: the high-end.
Sure, but they really aren't THAT low-ended... not really. Their
best stuff is in the midrange stuff, and thats where you'll see most
of the up-and-coming stuff. The flash of quadras is really nothing
more than variations-on-an-architectural-theme.... If you look
carefully, that is.
: So Commodore is the Yugo of the computer world?
Nope, I wouldn't say that. Not Yugo, anyways. In no way do I compare
my Amiga to a car that has a button you can push to turn it into an
"accordion", (nevermind that the button aforementioned is the
bumper)... :)
: But I feel so much better now that I've let my frustration out. I
: might even be able to stand another few years without a new set of
: custom chips. :-)
Not. :)
: Maybe, but at least they are making improvements.
Okay, it's an improvement. But Amiga owners don't want to trade the
speed of their graphics for resolution and color depth. That's why so
many people bitch that that blitter isn't fast enough. Right? :)
: Stock VGA maybe, but you should see the animations on the Tseng SVGA
: board that I use at work. The video board, 486-33, 20M RAM, 200M HD,
: monitor, mouse, and ethernet card cost less than my A3000 with 6M,
: 52M HD, monitor, ethernet card, and stock Amiga graphics. Jerry S.
: was right about setting the thing up correctly, the graphic updates
: are very fast, even at 1024x768x256. A sound card is cheap and the
: software will follow the hardware.
First, the graphics are fast, fine. Updates are lovely. But we're
talking about multimedia, and that means big animations. And that 64k
window is going to screw you over. Second, that "sound card", if
you're talking about, oh, the SoundBlaster or AdLib, don't compare to
the Amiga. The Amiga's got far better sound quality. Now some of the
new boards...
: Hey, I agree that Zorro III is great, but that is not the only thing
: that is commonly upgraded. The CPU, graphics, and sound are what made
: the Amiga appealing, but there have been few improvements.
Actually, I don't imagine it's the CPU. That's what makes Motorola
appealing. :) Seriously, that can be "transfixed" into any system,
at a cost. The cost on newer systems (such as the 3000/3000T) is far
more negligible than on older systems (say, oh, an A500. :), though.
Graphics and sound are harder. For graphics or sound advancements,
one sways toward the extremely-high-end for speed and resolution (such
as the Resolver and its ResolverBench, and the SunRize 12/16bit audio
boards), and that's a minus. However, things like DCTV make the Amiga
far more usable in specific applications, such as multimedia and
still-frame graphics.
: Yet C= itself has stated that many CDTV titles will not work properly
: on all CD-ROM drives. I am sure as hell not going to buy a drive
: unless I am assured that the software will run.
That's because the CDTV is NOT a CDRom + Amiga. There's a different
rom in there, plus some. It's why you NEED a CD590 for your 500, and
not some cheapo CDRom and some filesystem software. Don't view CDTV
as an Amiga + CDRom, and you're okay. Think of it as a CDTV, which
happens to run Amiga software, and use its custom chips... etc.
: I've also seen the CDTV and agree that it is cool, but C= seems to
: think that I should buy one of the damn things instead of selling me
: a drive for my Amiga. I have an A3000, why in the world do I want a
: slower Amiga?
Don't ask me. However, be aware that it's possible that CDTV titles
are hacked (read Psygnosis) to run on a 68000. :) Though I do
believe they'll eventually come out with a ZorroII Controller+CDRom...
: Maybe, but when a 386 with SVGA and HD drops into the A500 territory,
: you can bet that it will become the platform to develop for.
It's already the platform to develop for. But a 64k window on SVGA
systems is going to keep SVGA slow for a long time to come. VGA/SVGA
were never meant to be fast. They're like psuedo-framebuffers when it
comes to speed...
: For games, but I was thinking about some of the real apps.
I haven't thought of any ports for that either, except maybe
DeluxePaint. And there are a lot of high-end apps that you will ONLY
see on the Amiga, and that doesn't have anything like a counterpart on
other systems. Caligari Broadcast / 2 come to mind... Never has
there been such a good VR system.
: Cheap CPUs, memory, acclerated video cards, and steadily improving
: software is going to leave the Amiga behind.
Only if you think Motorola CPU's and memory itself will never get
cheaper. The competition doesn't use some "magic" memory that just
happens to be cheaper than anyone else's, you know. And systems
getting cheaper is as much a factor of the cost of the CPU as it is
the cost to produce the system, which is one of the things that make
the A600 such a leap.
We've got more than enough of our share of "accelerated video cards",
we just don't have DIG/RTG. There is a psuedo-RTG coming available
for TIGA boards, though, and that may lead the way for what we want...
And why would steadily improving software leave the Amiga behind?
Trying to say that Amiga software doesn't improve, perhaps??? And
innovative products like the Toaster, advancing operating system
technology, and future chipsets and architectures will leave the
competition behind, to end on the same note... :)
: I'll keep looking for a while longer, but it seems that I'll need
: to have the patience of Job.
God didn't even have that, otherwise he wouldn't have sent someone
down to "save" us. ;)
: If I could get an 040 motherboard for $500, I'd sure as hell do it.
Excuse me, but perhaps the fact that the chip costs as much as the
motherboard you just priced should make you wonder... :)
: And nearly as extinct as the Abaq, whoops, I mean abacus.
:)
: If you think about it, the real toaster-dongle is the Amiga. :-)
Not when you're using a "Toaster Workstation". :)
: Nah, if it gets too bad I'll just sell my Amiga, buy a 486, and
: spend the remaining money on beer. :-)
That'll either get you unconsciously drunk, or into a programmer's job
at IBM or Microsoft's operating systems departments... :)
Greg, Atheist Extrordanaire...
--
"Have you come here to play Jesus with the lepers in your head?" -U2, ONE
"I watched those children jump in the tall grass, leap the sprinkler..." REM
"Sushi is bad... READ MY LUNCH!!! A thousand bits of fish..." -George Bush
gbl...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu Gregory R. Block