Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!sunic!dkuug!daimi!u920659 From: u920...@daimi.aau.dk (Carsten S|rensen) Subject: New hardware reference guide? Message-ID: <1992Nov2.104323.2393@daimi.aau.dk> Keywords: hardware Sender: u920...@daimi.aau.dk (Carsten S|rensen) Organization: DAIMI: Computer Science Department, Aarhus University, Denmark Date: Mon, 2 Nov 92 10:43:23 GMT Lines: 6 Just wondering... With the new AGA chipset will C= release a new hardware reference guide? And when? Carsten Soerensen u920...@daimi.aau.dk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!ajk.tele.fi!funic!nntp.hut.fi!nntp!s37732v From: s377...@snakemail.hut.fi (Markus Juhani Aalto) Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide? In-Reply-To: u920659@daimi.aau.dk's message of Mon, 2 Nov 92 10:43:23 GMT Message-ID: <S37732V.92Nov2161634@lk-hp-3.hut.fi> Sender: use...@nntp.hut.fi (Usenet pseudouser id) Nntp-Posting-Host: lk-hp-3.hut.fi Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland References: <1992Nov2.104323.2393@daimi.aau.dk> Date: 02 Nov 92 14:16:34 GMT Lines: 22 In article <1992Nov2.104323.2...@daimi.aau.dk> u920...@daimi.aau.dk (Carsten S|rensen) writes: Just wondering... With the new AGA chipset will C= release a new hardware reference guide? And when? Carsten Soerensen u920...@daimi.aau.dk Mike Sinz has stated that there won't be new hardware reference manual! If you want to use features provided by AGA chips you have to use OS from now on. -- ************************************************************************** * Markus Aalto | Helsinki University of Technology * * | * * EMail: s377...@vipunen.hut.fi | Faculty of Electric Engineering * * Fax: 358-0-8746991 (Sometimes) | * * | Undergraduate in Computer Science * **************************************************************************
Path: sparky!uunet!noc.near.net!hri.com!ukma!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate! doc.ic.ac.uk!uknet!comlab.ox.ac.uk!oxuniv!mc813 From: mc...@vax.oxford.ac.uk Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide? Message-ID: <1992Nov2.201536.9913@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Date: 2 Nov 92 20:15:36 GMT Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620 Lines: 35 In article <S37732V.92Nov2161...@lk-hp-3.hut.fi> s377...@snakemail.hut.fi (Markus Juhani Aalto) writes: >In article <1992Nov2.104323.2...@daimi.aau.dk> u920...@daimi.aau.dk (Carsten S|rensen) writes: > > Just wondering... With the new AGA chipset will C= release > a new hardware reference guide? And when? > > Carsten Soerensen > u920...@daimi.aau.dk > >Mike Sinz has stated that there won't be new hardware reference manual! >If you want to use features provided by AGA chips you have to use OS from >now on. >-- This seems a bit silly, for two reasons: 1) It would be interesting to read about the AGA chip-set 2) Someone, somewhere, sooner or later, will disassemble the 3.0 Kickstart to figure out how to program the new chips directly (I would, if I had the ROM... :-( ), and there's nothing to stop that person releasing any information they may find. >************************************************************************** >* Markus Aalto | Helsinki University of Technology * >* | * >* EMail: s377...@vipunen.hut.fi | Faculty of Electric Engineering * >* Fax: 358-0-8746991 (Sometimes) | * >* | Undergraduate in Computer Science * >************************************************************************** -- Mark Knibbs ed93...@black.ox.ac.uk << New address mc...@vax.ox.ac.uk << Old address
Path: sparky!uunet!news.centerline.com!noc.near.net!hri.com!spool.mu.edu! sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov! decwrl!concert!sas!mozart.unx.sas.com!jamie From: ja...@cdevil.unx.sas.com (James Cooper) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide? Message-ID: <Bx5Ao0.4JJ@unx.sas.com> Date: 3 Nov 92 14:52:48 GMT References: <1992Nov2.201536.9913@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Sender: n...@unx.sas.com (Noter of Newsworthy Events) Organization: SAS Institute Inc. Lines: 42 Originator: ja...@cdevil.unx.sas.com Nntp-Posting-Host: cdevil.unx.sas.com In article <1992Nov2.201536.9...@vax.oxford.ac.uk>, mc...@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes: >In article <S37732V.92Nov2161...@lk-hp-3.hut.fi> s377...@snakemail.hut.fi (Markus Juhani Aalto) writes: > >>In article <1992Nov2.104323.2...@daimi.aau.dk> u920...@daimi.aau.dk (Carsten S|rensen) writes: >> >> Just wondering... With the new AGA chipset will C= release >> a new hardware reference guide? And when? >> >> Carsten Soerensen >> u920...@daimi.aau.dk >> >>Mike Sinz has stated that there won't be new hardware reference manual! >>If you want to use features provided by AGA chips you have to use OS from >>now on. >>-- > >This seems a bit silly, for two reasons: > > 1) It would be interesting to read about the AGA chip-set > > 2) Someone, somewhere, sooner or later, will disassemble the 3.0 > Kickstart to figure out how to program the new chips directly > (I would, if I had the ROM... :-( ), and there's nothing to stop > that person releasing any information they may find. Nothing but good sense, if they have any. Everyone seems to want to be able to bang directly on the hardware, but they also want retargetable graphics. Sorry, folks, you can't have both. If everyone will simply start using the system calls to work with the display, instead of bangin' bits, maybe the system can move forward a little. We probably could have had RTG already, if it weren't for all the bit bangers screaming about things not working on new machines... -- --------------- Jim Cooper (ja...@unx.sas.com) bix: jcooper Any opinions expressed herein are mine (Mine, all mine! Ha, ha, ha!), and not necessarily those of my employer.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer Path: sparky!uunet!utcsri!torn!cunews!nrcnet0!bnrgate!bmerh85!bmerh85!hamish From: Hamish.Macdon...@x400gate.bnr.ca (Hamish Macdonald) Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide? In-Reply-To: jamie@cdevil.unx.sas.com's message of Tue, 3 Nov 1992 14:52:48 GMT Message-ID: <1992Nov03.173522.27765@bmerh85.bnr.ca> Lines: 11 Sender: n...@bmerh85.bnr.ca (Usenet News) Organization: Bell Northern Research References: <1992Nov2.201536.9913@vax.oxford.ac.uk> <Bx5Ao0.4JJ@unx.sas.com> Date: Tue, 03 Nov 92 17:35:22 GMT >>>>> On Tue, 3 Nov 1992 14:52:48 GMT, >>>>> In message <Bx5Ao0....@unx.sas.com>, >>>>> ja...@cdevil.unx.sas.com (James Cooper) wrote: James> If everyone will simply start using the system calls to work James> with the display, instead of bangin' bits, maybe the system can James> move forward a little. We probably could have had RTG already, James> if it weren't for all the bit bangers screaming about things James> not working on new machines... What about those wanting to write their own operating system?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer Path: sparky!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!paladin.american.edu! news.univie.ac.at!hp4at!mcsun!sunic!seunet!pop!bjst From: b...@sth.frontec.se (Bjorn Stenberg) Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide? Message-ID: <1992Nov4.134857.24783@sth.frontec.se> Nntp-Posting-Host: pop.sth.frontec.se Organization: IDK/Frontec, Sweden References: <1992Nov2.201536.9913@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Date: 4 Nov 92 13:48:57 GMT Lines: 42 u920...@daimi.aau.dk (Carsten S|rensen) writes: >>> Just wondering... With the new AGA chipset will C= release >>> a new hardware reference guide? And when? s377...@snakemail.hut.fi (Markus Juhani Aalto) writes: >> Mike Sinz has stated that there won't be new hardware reference manual! mc...@vax.oxford.ac.uk (Mark Knibbs) writes: > 2) Someone, somewhere, sooner or later, will disassemble the 3.0 > Kickstart to figure out how to program the new chips directly > (I would, if I had the ROM... :-( ), and there's nothing to stop > that person releasing any information they may find. True, but I don't think this person will induce as much potential damage as if CBM published the AGA specs in - say - the RKRMs. No Amiga documentation (perhaps with the exception of some Fred Fish submitted stuff) reaches as many software developers as does the RKRMs. By not releasing hard core hw specs CBM can limit the amount of poorly written software produced. Those who really want to go on the hardware will do so anyway, no matter what CBM does. CBM used to release hw references for (almost) everything in the Amiga, but a lot of people misused it, and produced bad working software. This imposed a lot of work and expenses on CBM, money which I'm sure could have been used for better purposes. I applause CBMs initiative NOT to release the hw refs. Aren't you too tired of software not working on the new Amigas? It's been the same thing with all the new Amigas now, A500->A3000, A3000->A4000 etc. Lot's of software doesn't work, partly because is goes directly on the hardware instead of following CBM guidelines. I'M FED UP!!! Thanks Commodore. -- Bjorn /// Bjorn Stenberg, Stockholm, Sweden b...@sth.frontec.se /// main() { printf(&unix["\021%six\012\0"],(unix)["have"]+"fun"-0x60);} \\\ /// "- Your documentation no longer confuses me, old version!"
Path: sparky!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers! cmcl2!psinntp!psinntp!viper!news From: br...@visix.com (Brett Bourbin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide? Message-ID: <BxGvwE.4op@visix.com> Date: 9 Nov 92 21:05:01 GMT References: <1992Nov4.134857.24783@sth.frontec.se> Sender: n...@visix.com Reply-To: br...@visix.com Organization: Visix Software, Reston, Virginia Lines: 22 In article <1992Nov4.134857.24...@sth.frontec.se> b...@sth.frontec.se (Bjorn Stenberg) writes: > By not releasing hard core hw specs CBM can limit the amount of poorly written > software produced. Please! Hitting the hardware != POORLY Written Software There is well done software to has to go to the hardware There is poor software that goes to the hardware There is well done software that uses the OS There is poor software that uses the OS > /// Bjorn Stenberg, Stockholm, Sweden b...@sth.frontec.se > /// main() { printf(&unix["\021%six\012\0"],(unix)["have"]+"fun"-0x60);} > \\\ /// "- Your documentation no longer confuses me, old version!" -- __ Brett Bourbin \ / /(_ /\/ 11440 Commerce Park Drive br...@visix.com \/ / __)/ /\ Reston, Virginia 22091 ..uupsi!visix!brett Software Inc 703.758.8230
Path: sparky!uunet!pmafire!news.dell.com!natinst.com!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr! news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!seven-up.East.Sun.COM!sungy!news.Sweden.Sun.COM!swippy! seunet!pop!bjst From: b...@sth.frontec.se (Bjorn Stenberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide? Message-ID: <1992Nov11.124537.21704@sth.frontec.se> Date: 11 Nov 92 12:45:37 GMT References: <1992Nov4.134857.24783@sth.frontec.se> <BxGvwE.4op@visix.com> Organization: IDK/Frontec - System Design Group Lines: 25 Nntp-Posting-Host: pop.sth.frontec.se b...@sth.frontec.se (Bjorn Stenberg) writes: > > By not releasing hard core hw specs CBM can limit the amount of poorly > > written software produced. br...@visix.com writes: > Please! Hitting the hardware != POORLY Written Software Sure, there's lots of shit banging the hardware and works. Unfortunately, there's even more shit banging the hardware which does *NOT* work. I think saying that 'the less people are hitting hardware the more programs are likely to work well' is a pretty fair statement. Problems arise because when our friend the hacker gets 250+ registers to schmack and hit anyway he likes, he's likely to do something wrong. If he instead gets a few simple, properly written routines to do it, he'll have a greater chance of getting away with what he wants to accomplish. I never said -all- hardware hitting software was bad software. -- Bjorn /// Bjorn Stenberg, Stockholm, Sweden b...@sth.frontec.se /// main() { printf(&unix["\021%six\012\0"],(unix)["have"]+"fun"-0x60);} \\\ /// "- Your documentation no longer confuses me, old version!"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!sunic!dkuug!imada!news From: bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk (Bjoern Reese) Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide? Message-ID: <1992Nov11.150900.15090@imada.ou.dk> Sender: n...@imada.ou.dk (USENET News System) Organization: Dept. of Math. & Computer Science, Odense University, Denmark References: <1992Nov11.124537.21704@sth.frontec.se> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:09:00 GMT Lines: 12 In article <1992Nov11.124537.21...@sth.frontec.se> b...@sth.frontec.se (Bjorn Stenberg) writes: > I think saying that 'the less people are hitting hardware the more programs > are likely to work well' is a pretty fair statement. Consider this: "The more knowledge people have about the hardware the more likely their programs will work well." -- Bjoern Reese | Email: bre...@imada.ou.dk Odense University, Denmark | Voice: +45 65 932 182 (private)
Path: sparky!uunet!pipex!warwick!uknet!mcsun!sunic!seunet!pop!bjst From: b...@sth.frontec.se (Bjorn Stenberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide? Message-ID: <1992Nov15.104025.10090@sth.frontec.se> Date: 15 Nov 92 10:40:25 GMT References: <1992Nov11.124537.21704@sth.frontec.se> <1992Nov11.150900.15090@imada.ou.dk> Organization: IDK/Frontec - System Design Group Lines: 11 Nntp-Posting-Host: pop.sth.frontec.se bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk (Bjoern Reese) writes: > Consider this: "The more knowledge people have about the hardware the more > likely their programs will work well." Well, this HAS been tested for the past seven years, with little success... -- Bjorn /// Bjorn Stenberg, Stockholm, Sweden b...@sth.frontec.se /// main() { printf(&unix["\021%six\012\0"],(unix)["have"]+"fun"-0x60);} \\\ /// "- Your documentation no longer confuses me, old version!"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!sunic!dkuug!imada!news From: bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk (Bjoern Reese) Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide? Message-ID: <1992Nov16.130752.18379@imada.ou.dk> Sender: n...@imada.ou.dk (USENET News System) Organization: Dept. of Math. & Computer Science, Odense University, Denmark References: <1992Nov15.104025.10090@sth.frontec.se> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 13:07:52 GMT Lines: 64 In article <1992Nov15.104025.10...@sth.frontec.se> b...@sth.frontec.se (Bjorn Stenberg) writes: > bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk (Bjoern Reese) writes: > > Consider this: "The more knowledge people have about the hardware the more > > likely their programs will work well." > > Well, this HAS been tested for the past seven years, with little success... IMHO, there are four reasons to this lack of success: 1) The Seka assembler. It was extremely popular in the demo scene, because it gave you the feeling of total control over the machine. Most of the coders came from the C64, or a similar 8 bit machine, and they wanted to know exactly what was going on at any time. The Seka assembler allowed the continuation of the bad programming style of the 8 bit machines. 2) The "Machine Language" book from Abacus. Being the only book easily available which claimed to teach you Assembly Language, it rose to fame. Sadly it a) contained a huge amount of bugs, and b) supported the Seka assembler. 3) The early version of the Hardware Reference Guide. This manual is amoung the worst documentations I've ever seen. Cryptical explanations, lousy (even buggy) examples. Anyone having tried to figure out how to draw lines, or using the CIAs, will know what I mean. 4) The demo scene was/is a learning ground for upcomming programmers. People make mistakes; beginners more than experienced. Some of these mistakes continued to flourish as sourcecodes and tricks were shared amoung coders. Problem was/is, that many coders rather get famous quick, than learn the craft well, so they just copied the code of other coders. Now, this shows us that C= was partly to blame, because of their incomprehensive Hardware Ref Guide. Well, the Hardware Ref Guide was partly unusable, and besides only a minority of the upcomming coders had a copy, but did that stop them? NO! My prediction is that it will not stop them either, if C= doesn't release a new Hardware Ref Guide, featuring the AGA chips. As the AGA chips are made available in low-price machines, and hence available to new upcomming coders, there will a massive interest in how to program the chips, and with or without a Guide, they will try. So I say, it is better to release a new Guide, in order to set guidelines and to prevent fatal errors. Also, I think this discussion is biased. Most of the people on Internet are students at college or university level, or employees at a commercial company. This kind of people are well educated in programming, and if some of them were raised in the demo scene, they most likely have converted (like me.) Even though we are Amiga users, I don't think that we represent a very wide variety of the common Amiga users. I am not complaining, just trying to set things in perspective. -- Bjoern Reese | Email: bre...@imada.ou.dk Odense University, Denmark | Voice: +45 65 932 182 (private)
Path: sparky!uunet!charon.amdahl.com!pacbell.com!sgiblab!spool.mu.edu! agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!uknet!mcsun!fuug!funic!news.cs.hut.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!oahvenla From: oahve...@snakemail.hut.fi (Osma Ahvenlampi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide? Message-ID: <OAHVENLA.92Nov17002933@lk-hp-4.hut.fi> Date: 16 Nov 92 22:29:33 GMT References: <1992Nov15.104025.10090@sth.frontec.se> <1992Nov16.130752.18379@imada.ou.dk> Sender: use...@cs.hut.fi (Uutis Ankka) Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland Lines: 20 In-Reply-To: breese@monet.imada.ou.dk's message of Mon, 16 Nov 1992 13:07:52 GMT In article <1992Nov16.130752.18...@imada.ou.dk> bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk (Bjoern Reese) writes: [...] >doesn't release a new Hardware Ref Guide, featuring the AGA >chips. As the AGA chips are made available in low-price >machines, and hence available to new upcomming coders, there >will a massive interest in how to program the chips, and >with or without a Guide, they will try. So I say, it is better >to release a new Guide, in order to set guidelines and to >prevent fatal errors. This is the whole point. C= won't release the Hardware information, because that would mean saying that it's OK to directly access hardware, when it's not. They don't, on the other hand, mind if some coder works out the addresses from graphics.library, even if he gets them wrong, as everyone, who really wants to have his programs work correctly, doesn't use this info. Democoders can use it all they want, it's not a big deal if demos crash on new computers, they've been crashing left and right since the start. -- Osma Ahvenlampi - oahve...@snakemail.hut.fi * Workstation power for micro- All my opinions are not necessarily really mine * computer price: Amiga := FUN
Path: sparky!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au!news.qut.edu.au!qut.edu.au! podesta From: pode...@qut.edu.au Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide? Message-ID: <1992Nov18.134641.58767@qut.edu.au> Date: 18 Nov 92 13:46:41 EST References: <1992Nov15.104025.10090@sth.frontec.se> <1992Nov16.130752.18379@imada.ou.dk> <OAHVENLA.92Nov17002933@lk-hp-4.hut.fi> Organization: Queensland University of Technology Lines: 32 In article <OAHVENLA.92Nov17002...@lk-hp-4.hut.fi>, oahve...@snakemail.hut.fi (Osma Ahvenlampi) writes: > In article <1992Nov16.130752.18...@imada.ou.dk> bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk (Bjoern Reese) writes: > [...] >>doesn't release a new Hardware Ref Guide, featuring the AGA > > This is the whole point. C= won't release the Hardware information, because > that would mean saying that it's OK to directly access hardware, when it's I don't get it. What's the big deal???? Why don't Commodore just release it and say something like: "BANGING THE HARDWARE IS NOT UPWARDLY COMPATIBLE" Then all of us who don't give a damn about upward compatibility (ie. in demos and some games) can write our demos and have fun, and those who want to write software that will last forever can go through the OS. People have argued that you should write a ECS version, using hardware, and include an OS friendly AGA version. WHY??? If your gonna go to all that trouble, just write an ECS version, and change the hardware routines for the AGA versions. Even machine code can be modular :) If a new machine comes out, we insert new code. This way we are always getting the most out of the system...rather than just wasting MIPS by going through the OS. I mean the OS is GREAT. I love it. It's one of the reasons that Amiga rules.. but its a development environment, not a demo or game environment. James. Disclaimer: The above opinions are mine...obviously
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer Path: sparky!uunet!mcsun!sunic!dkuug!imada!news From: bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk (Bjoern Reese) Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide? Message-ID: <1992Nov19.140544.28847@imada.ou.dk> Sender: n...@imada.ou.dk (USENET News System) Organization: Dept. of Math. & Computer Science, Odense University, Denmark References: <1992Nov18.134641.58767@qut.edu.au> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 14:05:44 GMT Lines: 46 In article <1992Nov18.134641.58...@qut.edu.au> pode...@qut.edu.au writes: > In article <OAHVENLA.92Nov17002...@lk-hp-4.hut.fi>, oahve...@snakemail.hut.fi (Osma Ahvenlampi) writes: > > C= won't release the Hardware information, because > > that would mean saying that it's OK to directly access hardware, when it's > > I don't get it. What's the big deal???? > Why don't Commodore just release it and say something like: > > "BANGING THE HARDWARE IS NOT UPWARDLY COMPATIBLE" > > Then all of us who don't give a damn about upward compatibility > (ie. in demos and some games) can write our demos and have fun, and > those who want to write software that will last forever can go through > the OS. That is EXACTLY how I feel too. The demo won't run on a new chipset, but so what? I don't care. There's no, or little, money in doing demos. We're doing demos for the fun of it. You people with the big machines actually have an option: Don't watch demos!!! If you're so afraid that demos will crash your machine or that it may harm your hardware, don't watch demos! If C= doesn't release the hardware specs, I can ensure you that it doesn't mean that democoders will start producing OS-demos; more likely they will leave the Amiga world. Why can't you let us write our demos and have the fun what we want? > I mean the OS is GREAT. I love it. It's one of the reasons that Amiga rules.. > but its a development environment, not a demo or game environment. I agree again. The OS is GREAT, and I can understand that the software engineers at C= aren't feeling too happy about people like me, when I stuff the OS, which they have been working hard at for several years. But I think that every programmer should be given to freedom to do as he/she likes, based on guidelines from C=. If we don't care about upwards compatibility, it's our problem (we probably never intended these programs to run on a future machine; we made them to show what the current machine can do, and remember: we never got any money for our efforts!!) -- Bjoern Reese | Email: bre...@imada.ou.dk Odense University, Denmark | Voice: +45 65 932 182 (private)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer Path: sparky!uunet!utcsri!skule.ecf!torn!nott!bnrgate!bmerh85!bmerh85!hamish From: Hamish.Macdon...@x400gate.bnr.ca (Hamish Macdonald) Subject: Re: New hardware reference guide? In-Reply-To: breese@monet.imada.ou.dk's message of 19 Nov 92 14:05:44 GMT Message-ID: <1992Nov19.182351.3063@bmerh85.bnr.ca> Lines: 30 Sender: n...@bmerh85.bnr.ca (Usenet News) Organization: Bell Northern Research References: <1992Nov18.134641.58767@qut.edu.au> <1992Nov19.140544.28847@imada.ou.dk> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 18:23:51 GMT >>>>> On 19 Nov 92 14:05:44 GMT, >>>>> In message <1992Nov19.140544.28...@imada.ou.dk>, >>>>> bre...@monet.imada.ou.dk (Bjoern Reese) wrote: Bjoern> I agree again. The OS is GREAT, and I can understand that the Bjoern> software engineers at C= aren't feeling too happy about people Bjoern> like me, when I stuff the OS, which they have been working Bjoern> hard at for several years. Bjoern> But I think that every programmer should be given to freedom ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Bjoern> to do as he/she likes, based on guidelines from C=. If we ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Bjoern> don't care about upwards compatibility, it's our problem (we Bjoern> probably never intended these programs to run on a future Bjoern> machine; we made them to show what the current machine can do, Bjoern> and remember: we never got any money for our efforts!!) That's exactly what is happening. Commodore's guidelines in this case are: "We are not going to do anything at all to help you program this machine other than use the OS routines." They're not *stopping* you from banging the hardware, they're just not telling you how to do it. Nothing is stopping you from investigating the hardware and figuring out how to do it yourselves.