Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: gmd.de!Germany.EU.net!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!torn!
uunet.ca!canrem!dosgate!dosgate![roy.p...@canrem.com]
From: "roy park" <roy.p...@canrem.com>
Subject: we amiga users....
Message-ID: <199320.4477.43919@dosgate>
Reply-To: "roy park" <roy.p...@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: comp
Date: 20 Apr 93 07:52:16 EST
Lines: 102
To my dear fellow Amiga users/owners.... I have just one thing to say.
WE NEED BETTER SOFTWARE, NOT HARDWARE!
I'm pretty sure some people were disappointed to the fact that the AGA
chipset in fact is interlaced in 800 by 600, no 1280 by 1024 resolution
and so on... but let's fact it... who the hell really uses 1280 by 1024
res on ANY PERSONAL computers for Games and common Word processors?
What, you want to see a nice unreadable 160 characters by 80 characters
on tiny 14 inch screen? NO! YOU don't need it, maybe some people who
uses CAD or PCB layout program will use it.. but then, how much of
PERSONAL computer population really do that? We DO have a nice mode
which already does 640 by 400 * 8 colours with no flicker, which is
more than sufficient for MAJORITY of PERSONAL computer users. If they
needed higher resolution and more computational power, they'd probably
buy a SGI or Sun without any second thought! So stop yelling about "WE
NEED A5000 with 1280*1024*24, 16-bit audio, and PEG!"!
Just because IBM users have access to these 'special' hardwares at extra
cost doesn't mean that they are standardized in anyway YET.
Soundblaster
IS 8-bit, and no game makers really write games for the famous
'1024*768'
SVGA resolution because it would be too slow! No matter HOW local it is
to the CPU! Also, I'm aware that MPEG board is available for IBM clones
at a relatively affordable price... but again, WHO THE HELL NEEDS IT?!
What, you gonna be staring at your computer ALL DAY? Play games on it,
do homeworks on it, do work on it, watch TV on it, then what? Have sex
with it? (perhaps in the future?) I MEAN, GET A LIFE!
Here are list of some things that I think Amiga community NEEDS right
NOW:
First of all, WE NEED a GOOD software development tool! Why the heck
isn't
anyone (Commodore maybe?) work on a easy to use standard (included as a
utility perhaps) user interface ---> code linker (like Interface
Builder
for NeXT.. if you don't know what that is it's like HyperCard or Amiga-
Visin where C (or even in C++) is used as the script (in a sense)). We
need to have a GOOD tool in order to attract the developers.. because
TIME IS MONEY! If developers figure that it's a lot easy to make money
on Amiga platform because they don't have to spend as much time before
they actually come up with the product, they WILL do it!
Secondly... Commodore, PLEASE GIVE US MEMORY PROTECTION AT OS LEVEL!
God
damn it! How the hell are you planning to support this AmigaOS in the
future if you are not going to do this NOW? FIX IT UP!
Third... we need REAL programmers! I mean programmers with EDUCATIONS!
I
mean we oughtta have some body who can write some really GOOD database
or
word processors! As I understand it, most of Amiga programmers (except
those people at CBM & other HW/SW developers) are HACKERS... and they
won't
last long. Ever ask yourself a question "why the heck is MS-Word so
good?"
THAT'S BECAUSE THOSE PEOPLE ARE PROFESSIONAL PROGRAMMERS WHO GRADUATED
UNIVERSITIES WITH DEGREE IN COMPUTERSCIENCE (or something equivalent)!
Those people are not morons! They are fucking good! If you think that
some high school drop-out (or maybe even a community college graduate)
can
write an equivalently good program, then you are nuts! Hmm.. ok, calm
myself down here.. so if you are a university student who thinks that
you
are good at all, then WRITE codes for Amiga! You just have to! Because
Amiga IS a GOOD machine (could be better, but that's ok..at least
hardware
wise).
And last, READ about your computer... and computers in general, and
learn
about it! I find most Amiga users pretty much ignorant (or
misunderstood)
about general terms & concepts on nets, and I think it's sad that they
don't really KNOW what great machine they have at home. Also, reading
about computers in general would be good for them because in the future
it
will eventually serve you well, specially when IBMers trying bash
Amigas! :)
Nobody died to make me God, so I can't really tell Amiga users or
Commodore
(specially!) what o do.. but this is my two cents on what Amiga's future
should be.
Oh, one thing I forgot to mention... I don't really know why so many
Amiga
user HATE Macintoshs... there's no need... if you are hating macs
because
you don't own them and they sometimes look better than what you have,
then
you don't deserve an Amiga! BECAUSE IT IS NOT BETTER! We may not have
as
many nice application programs or big companies supporting us right now,
--
Canada Remote Systems - Toronto, Ontario
416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: gmd.de!Germany.EU.net!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!torn!
uunet.ca!canrem!dosgate!dosgate![roy.p...@canrem.com]
From: "roy park" <roy.p...@canrem.com>
Subject: we amiga users...
Message-ID: <199320.4477.43920@dosgate>
Reply-To: "roy park" <roy.p...@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: comp
Date: 20 Apr 93 07:59:55 EST
Lines: 57
To my dear fellow Amiga users/owners.... I have just one thing to say.
WE NEED BETTER SOFTWARE, NOT HARDWARE!
I'm pretty sure some people were disappointed to the fact that the AGA
chipset in fact is interlaced in 800 by 600, no 1280 by 1024 resolution
and so on... but let's fact it... who the hell really uses 1280 by 1024
res on ANY PERSONAL computers for Games and common Word processors?
What, you want to see a nice unreadable 160 characters by 80 characters
on tiny 14 inch screen? NO! YOU don't need it, maybe some people who
uses CAD or PCB layout program will use it.. but then, how much of
PERSONAL computer population really do that? We DO have a nice mode
which already does 640 by 400 * 8 colours with no flicker, which is
more than sufficient for MAJORITY of PERSONAL computer users. If they
needed higher resolution and more computational power, they'd probably
buy a SGI or Sun without any second thought! So stop yelling about "WE
NEED A5000 with 1280*1024*24, 16-bit audio, and PEG!"!
Just because IBM users have access to these 'special' hardwares at extra
cost doesn't mean that they are standardized in anyway YET.
Soundblaster
IS 8-bit, and no game makers really write games for the famous
'1024*768'
SVGA resolution because it would be too slow! No matter HOW local it is
to the CPU! Also, I'm aware that MPEG board is available for IBM clones
at a relatively affordable price... but again, WHO THE HELL NEEDS IT?!
What, you gonna be staring at your computer ALL DAY? Play games on it,
do homeworks on it, do work on it, watch TV on it, then what? Have sex
with it? (perhaps in the future?) I MEAN, GET A LIFE!
Here are list of some things that I think Amiga community NEEDS right
NOW:
First of all, WE NEED a GOOD software development tool! Why the heck
isn't
anyone (Commodore maybe?) work on a easy to use standard (included as a
utility perhaps) user interface ---> code linker (like Interface
Builder
for NeXT.. if you don't know what that is it's like HyperCard or Amiga-
Visin where C (or even in C++) is used as the script (in a sense)). We
need to have a GOOD tool in order to attract the developers.. because
TIME IS MONEY! If developers figure that it's a lot easy to make money
on Amiga platform because they don't have to spend as much time before
they actually come up with the product, they WILL do it!
Secondly... Commodore, PLEASE GIVE US MEMORY PROTECTION AT OS LEVEL!
God
damn it! How the hell are you planning to support this AmigaOS in the
future if you are not going to do this NOW? FIX IT UP!
(continued on next message...)
--
Canada Remote Systems - Toronto, Ontario
416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: gmd.de!Germany.EU.net!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!torn!
uunet.ca!canrem!dosgate!dosgate![roy.p...@canrem.com]
From: "roy park" <roy.p...@canrem.com>
Subject: we amiga users...
Message-ID: <1993Apr20.4477.43921@dosgate>
Reply-To: "roy park" <roy.p...@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: comp
Date: 20 Apr 93 07:59:55 EST
Lines: 66
(continued from previous message...)
Third... we need REAL programmers! I mean programmers with EDUCATIONS!
I
mean we oughtta have some body who can write some really GOOD database
or
word processors! As I understand it, most of Amiga programmers (except
those people at CBM & other HW/SW developers) are HACKERS... and they
won't
last long. Ever ask yourself a question "why the heck is MS-Word so
good?"
THAT'S BECAUSE THOSE PEOPLE ARE PROFESSIONAL PROGRAMMERS WHO GRADUATED
UNIVERSITIES WITH DEGREE IN COMPUTER SCIENCE (or something equivalent)!
Those people are not morons! They are fucking good! If you think that
some high school drop-out (or maybe even a community college graduate)
can
write an equivalently good program, then you are nuts! Hmm.. ok, calm
myself down here.. so if you are a university student who thinks that
you
are good at all, then WRITE codes for Amiga! You just have to! Because
Amiga IS a GOOD machine (could be better, but that's ok..at least
hardware
wise).
And last, READ about our computer... and computers in general, and learn
about it! I find most Amiga users pretty much ignorant (or
misunderstood)
about general terms & concepts on nets, and I think it's sad that they
don't really KNOW what great machine they have at home. Also, reading
about computers in general would be good for them because in the future
it
will eventually serve you well, specially when IBMers trying bash
Amigas! :)
Nobody died to make me God, so I can't really tell Amiga users or
Commodore
(specially!) what to do.. but this is my two cents on what Amiga's
future
should be.
Oh, one thing I forgot to mention... I don't really know why so many
Amiga
user HATE Macintoshs... there's no need... if you are hating macs
because
you don't own them and they sometimes look better than what you have,
then
you don't deserve an Amiga! BECAUSE IT IS NOT BETTER! We may not have
as
many nice application programs or big companies supporting us right now,
but I personally think Macs are about as good as Amigas in some rea, or
maybe better in some other...
So remember two things... Macs are no reason to hate... MB's attitude is
(something like SUPERIOR RACE of computers over the other)... and Macs
are
NOT BETTER than Amiga because they are not as FUN to use. :)
********************** rp...@canrem.com *********************
* *
* Roy K. Park - "Maybe you CAN split an atom with a knife!" *
* *
************* rkp...@1302.watstar.uwaterloo.ca **************
--
Canada Remote Systems - Toronto, Ontario
416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: gmd.de!ira.uka.de!math.fu-berlin.de!umn.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!
gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.udel.edu!chopin.udel.edu!don
From: d...@chopin.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd)
Subject: Re: we amiga users....
Message-ID: <C5u7IK.3M5@news.udel.edu>
Sender: use...@news.udel.edu
Nntp-Posting-Host: chopin.udel.edu
Organization: University of Delaware
References: <199320.4477.43919@dosgate>
Distribution: comp
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 14:13:31 GMT
Lines: 62
In article <199320.4477.43919@dosgate> "roy park" <roy.p...@canrem.com> writes:
>
>Here are list of some things that I think Amiga community NEEDS right
>NOW:
>
>First of all, WE NEED a GOOD software development tool! Why the heck
>isn't
>anyone (Commodore maybe?) work on a easy to use standard (included as a
>utility perhaps) user interface ---> code linker (like Interface
>Builder
>for NeXT.. if you don't know what that is it's like HyperCard or Amiga-
>Visin where C (or even in C++) is used as the script (in a sense)). We
>need to have a GOOD tool in order to attract the developers.. because
>TIME IS MONEY! If developers figure that it's a lot easy to make money
>on Amiga platform because they don't have to spend as much time before
>they actually come up with the product, they WILL do it!
ToolMaker, AppBuilder, and something else whose name I can't remember are
being worked on right now.
>Secondly... Commodore, PLEASE GIVE US MEMORY PROTECTION AT OS LEVEL!
>God
>damn it! How the hell are you planning to support this AmigaOS in the
>future if you are not going to do this NOW? FIX IT UP!
... and make millions of users without MMUs unable to run the OS?
["Real programmers have college degrees and work for Microsoft" tirade
deleted]
I think you might just have offended quite a large number of people
here. Do you have some kind of figures showing that a) Amiga programmers
aren't educated and b) that non-college educated programmers can't write
good code? (If anything, colleges teach 'em to write huge, bloated, Unix-ish
code :)
>And last, READ about your computer... and computers in general, and
>learn
>about it! I find most Amiga users pretty much ignorant (or
>misunderstood)
>about general terms & concepts on nets, and I think it's sad that they
>don't really KNOW what great machine they have at home. Also, reading
>about computers in general would be good for them because in the future
>it
>will eventually serve you well, specially when IBMers trying bash
>Amigas! :)
It's been my observation that Amiga users in general seem to be more
aware of the technical issues and the market in general than do most PC or
Mac owners (who very often buy their machines because "everybody else
has one and I can get lots of software from work and friends".)
--
Don Lloyd | Publications Editor, AmigaNetwork |AmigaNetwork Voice Mail
d...@chopin.udel.edu | AmigaNetwork BBS (The Original!) | Info by voice or FAX
GeNIE: D.LLOYD7 | (302)368-3942 (v.32bis) | (GVP PhonePak)
BIX: DRL | (302)368-1067 (USR HST) | (302)368-4673)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: gmd.de!ira.uka.de!math.fu-berlin.de!umn.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!
gatech!ukma!netnews.louisville.edu!ulkyvx.louisville.edu!cl239935
From: cl239...@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: we amiga users....
Sender: n...@netnews.louisville.edu (Netnews)
Message-ID: <1993Apr21.145153.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 18:51:53 GMT
Distribution: comp
Lines: 35
References: <199320.4477.43919@dosgate> <C5u7IK.3M5@news.udel.edu>
Nntp-Posting-Host: ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Organization: University of Louisville
In article <C5u7IK....@news.udel.edu>, d...@chopin.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd)
writes:
>
>
> ["Real programmers have college degrees and work for Microsoft" tirade
> deleted]
>
> I think you might just have offended quite a large number of people
> here. Do you have some kind of figures showing that a) Amiga programmers
> aren't educated and b) that non-college educated programmers can't write
> good code? (If anything, colleges teach 'em to write huge, bloated, Unix-ish
> code :)
After all, Bill Gates flunked out in college and look at that crappy peice of
code called MS-dos that he wrote.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Don Lloyd | Publications Editor, AmigaNetwork |AmigaNetwork Voice Mail
> d...@chopin.udel.edu | AmigaNetwork BBS (The Original!) | Info by voice or FAX
> GeNIE: D.LLOYD7 | (302)368-3942 (v.32bis) | (GVP PhonePak)
> BIX: DRL | (302)368-1067 (USR HST) | (302)368-4673)
MikeB
Sex, Amiga, and Rock'n Roll!!!!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: gmd.de!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!
cs.utexas.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!canrem!dosgate!dosgate![roy.p...@canrem.com]
From: "roy park" <roy.p...@canrem.com>
Subject: re: we amiga users...
Message-ID: <199325.4477.44109@dosgate>
Reply-To: "roy park" <roy.p...@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: comp
Date: 25 Apr 93 04:43:16 EST
Lines: 51
d...@chopin.udel.edu writes...
>>Secondly... Commodore, PLEASE GIVE US MEMORY PROTECTION AT OS LEVEL!
>>God damn it! How the hell are you planning to support this AmigaOS
>>in the future if you are not going to do this NOW? FIX IT UP!
>
> ... and make millions of users without MMUs unable to run the OS?
>
Well, CBM will eventually have to include MMU in entry level system.
Personally, I think Commodore should have used 68030 w/MMU in A1200
instead of 68EC020. I really don't know why Commodore is always making
stupid decisions like that.. I mean, it wouldn't cost them that much
cash if they used '030 over '020.. why why why?! I mean, supposely
they sell over 1 million units within a year period, the cost of put-
ting '030 in A1200 would be a fraction of how much they'd be making.
Oh well...
>>...Real programmers have college degrees and work for..........
>>[rest deleted]
> I think you might just have offended quite a large number of people
>here. Do you have some kind of figures showing that a)Amiga programmers
>aren't educated and b) that non-college educated programmers can't
write
>good code? (If anything, colleges teach 'em to write huge, bloated,
>Unix-ish code :)
The basis for my sake of argument was that, personally I haven't really
noticed any exceptionally good software in comparison with softwares on
other platforms... I must admit some graphics software on Amiga is in
a pretty good shape considering the size of our user base (specially 3D
oriented softwares). But that's not enough! There's no way you can
write a well structured/efficient program without being properly trained
by higher level education eg. university education. However, it maybe
true that one could teach himself by reading books if he/she spends
hours
and hours on his/her computer with such passion... and possibly become
a professional software developer (I'm referring to software developer,
not a coder). And it would be pretty damn hard without any guidence
from outside.
*********************** roy.p...@canem.com ************************
* *
* Roy K. Park - "Maybe you really CAN split an atom with a knife!" *
* *
***************** rkp...@1302.watstar.uwaterloo.ca *****************
--
Canada Remote Systems - Toronto, Ontario
416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: gmd.de!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!
cs.utexas.edu!uunet!uunet.ca!canrem!dosgate!dosgate![roy.p...@canrem.com]
From: "roy park" <roy.p...@canrem.com>
Subject: re: we amiga users...
Message-ID: <1993Apr25.4477.44110@dosgate>
Reply-To: "roy park" <roy.p...@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: comp
Date: 25 Apr 93 04:43:16 EST
Lines: 37
>>>["Real programmers have college degrees and work for Microsoft"
tirade
>>>deleted]
>>>
>> I think you might just have offended quite a large number of
people
>>here. Do you have some kind of figures showing that a) Amiga
programmers
>>aren't educated and b) that non-college educated programmers can't
write
>>good code? (If anything, colleges teach 'em to write huge, bloated,
>>Unix-ish code :)
>After all, Bill Gates flunked out in college and look at that crappy
peice
>of code called MS-dos that he wrote.
Ah... a correction to be made here, Bill Gate (not Gates!) wrote NO
code..
he just bought it off one of his collegues. It was his management skill
and heck of a luck that made today's Microsoft possible. They really
can
market stuff you know... well, back then PC users didn't have much
choice
either.. I'm pretty sure they would have chosen AmigaDOS if it was
avail-
able at the time. :)
*********************** roy.p...@canrem.com ************************
* *
* Roy K. Park - "Maybe you really CAN split an atom with a knife!" *
* *
***************** rkp...@1302.watstar.uwaterloo.ca *****************
--
Canada Remote Systems - Toronto, Ontario
416-629-7000/629-7044
Path: gmd.de!rrz.uni-koeln.de!unidui!math.fu-berlin.de!ira.uka.de!
sol.ctr.columbia.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!tirana.berkeley.edu!dbolski
From: dbol...@tirana.berkeley.edu (Dariusz Bolski)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: we amiga users...
Date: 26 Apr 1993 02:23:35 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
Lines: 48
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <1rfh37$abn@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <199325.4477.44109@dosgate>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tirana.berkeley.edu
In article <199325.4477.44109@dosgate> "roy park" <roy.p...@canrem.com> writes:
>>>...Real programmers have college degrees and work for..........
Accordingly to the document I saw (it was a joke) Real programmers program
only in fortran :-). But seriously LOTS of people who created computer science
did not have degrees in computer science (by definition: they created it, thus
they couldn't study it in school). BTW I know a lot of physists who are as
proficient in CS as they friends from CS.
>noticed any exceptionally good software in comparison with softwares on
>other platforms... I must admit some graphics software on Amiga is in
>a pretty good shape considering the size of our user base (specially 3D
>oriented softwares).
People differ opinion what is an "exceptionally good software".
Some people stay with Amiga _because_ they consider that it has
some _exceptionaly good software. Like I do.
> But that's not enough! There's no way you can
>write a well structured/efficient program without being properly trained
>by higher level education eg. university education.
Sorry, but, that's a nonsense. Lots of my friends in CS classes were a nonsense
programmers and they should have rather cook carrot then program. Strangely
enough these usually end up being PC programmers (as they kept saying "I program
were the market is"). And yet I knew quite a few _excellent_ programmers without
the higher education in CS. Good memory, sense of reason, brilliant ideas
and talent made them writing very well structured and mostly efficient code.
Unless boss asked for the 80MB instead of 1.5 for marketing reasons :-)
> However, it maybe
>true that one could teach himself by reading books if he/she spends
>hours
>and hours on his/her computer with such passion... and possibly become
>a professional software developer (I'm referring to software developer,
>not a coder). And it would be pretty damn hard without any guidence
>from outside.
But possible. If these get through the others with "college education" they
usually surpass them in something in order to make up for the lack of diploma.
>*********************** roy.p...@canem.com ************************
Regards,
Dariusz Bolski
de...@xaos.com
Path: gmd.de!ira.uka.de!news.belwue.de!math.fu-berlin.de!umn.edu!
news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!sdd.hp.com!caen!babo
From: b...@engin.umich.edu (Kyonghun Lee )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: we amiga users...
Date: 26 Apr 1993 05:44:45 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Lines: 51
Distribution: usa
Message-ID: <1rfssdINNfnp@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>
References: <199325.4477.44109@dosgate> <1rfh37$abn@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: waldorf.engin.umich.edu
In article <1rfh37$...@agate.berkeley.edu> dbol...@tirana.berkeley.edu
(Dariusz Bolski) writes:
>In article <199325.4477.44109@dosgate> "roy park" <roy.p...@canrem.com> writes:
>>>>...Real programmers have college degrees and work for..........
>
>Accordingly to the document I saw (it was a joke) Real programmers program
>only in fortran :-). But seriously LOTS of people who created computer science
[...etc...Whole bunch of interesting argument about CS degree and Programing
deleted..]
Hi. I followed this discussion for a while and found it to be interesting.
I and some of my friends used to have similar discussions, before, and
I would like to add my HO, so don't flame me too much. This is rather
subjective, so bear with me.
I think, essentially, getting a "CS" degree *IS* an advantage. Period.
As one of you said, there are many individuals who can do without it.
However, it is perceived in the majority of the engineering field, that
in the future, it will get harder and harder to come up with a true
innovation for an individual without a structured and professional
education. The reasaon is that there will be so much information to
absorb by an indivadual to even start thinking about new stuff.
In a sturctured eduaction, therew ill be hundreds of professionals
ready to tell you the most significant material from *THEIR*
research effort. True. A lot of Physics students are good with
computers, too, so some one will say this argument will not
hold that well. Most of the physics students, DO get
further education in CS if they are attempting more than a
"hobby" type of programing, however.
Also, i would like to raise another point. I the previous discussions
you mentioned only "CS" degree-holders. Here at Michigan, there
is a "CS" department, which is not part of the College of Engineering
and a "CE" department which is basically ran by the Electrical Engineering
department. I suppose this is a very biased information and
I have *NO* clue whether it is true or not(so don't flame me for this
too much) but the CE majors don't regard CS people very highly.
Very snobish, indeed, but hell it is college after all, right? ;)
Anyway, the CEs claim that the stuff they are learning is
very important in writing serious programs such as OSs and
extremly hard to do without a degree. They also calim that
CS people ususally write less demanding codes, such as
applications. So, what it is worth, I have this impression that
you probaly need a professional degree in the right field after all.
Kyonghun Lee
The University of Michigan
Mechinical Engineering
9b...@engin.umich.edu)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Path: gmd.de!Germany.EU.net!mcsun!uknet!pipex!uunet!cbmvax!daveh
From: da...@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Subject: Re: we amiga users...
Message-ID: <C69KBt.8D@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com>
Reply-To: da...@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA
References: <1993Apr20.4477.43921@dosgate>
Distribution: comp
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 21:14:17 GMT
Lines: 38
In article <1993Apr20.4477.43921@dosgate> "roy park" <roy.p...@canrem.com> writes:
>(continued from previous message...)
>Third... we need REAL programmers! I mean programmers with EDUCATIONS!
There are plenty of them around. There are also plenty of hackers. Some
claim to be members of both sets.
>As understand it, most of Amiga programmers (except those people at CBM &
>other HW/SW developers) are HACKERS... and they won't last long.
What do you mean here? There are plenty of degreed folks writing software
in the Amiga community, and plenty of non-degreed folks writing software
elsewhere. And visa-versa. What you know is far more important than how
you came to know it.
>Ever ask yourself a question "why the heck is MS-Word so good?"
Well, actually, yes. And my conclusions are:
1) It isn't so good. I had much more power using Scribe on the
DEC-20s back in college (circa 1979-1983).
2) Given enough money, time, and people, anything can reach a
decent level.
The problem with the Amiga community is certainly with (2). MicroSoft
makes billions of dollars, and that gives them a little more resource
to make their wordprocessors than folks like SoftWood or whomever. What's
hard to explain is (1), how come there aren't graphical word processors
at the level of the state-of-the-average text markup language from 15
years ago. On the PC, especially.
--
Dave Haynie / Commodore Technology, High-End Amiga Systems Design (cool stuff)
"The Crew That Never Rests" {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh BIX: hazy
"Head like hole, black as your soul, I'd rather die than give you control" -NIN
Path: gmd.de!ira.uka.de!math.fu-berlin.de!umn.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!
darwin.sura.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!rutgers!cbmvax!daveh
From: da...@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: we amiga users...
Message-ID: <C6KoGn.A2s@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com>
Date: 5 May 93 21:17:10 GMT
References: <199325.4477.44109@dosgate> <1rfh37$abn@agate.berkeley.edu>
<1rfssdINNfnp@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>
Reply-To: da...@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA
Lines: 68
In article <1rfssdINN...@srvr1.engin.umich.edu> b...@engin.umich.edu
(Kyonghun Lee ) writes:
>I think, essentially, getting a "CS" degree *IS* an advantage. Period.
It does prove that you at least has the self dicipline to get a college
degree. That alone was a problem among CS students back when I was in
school, many of whom would prefer to hack all day rather than going to
class. Some of these guys hung out at school for years, perhaps holding
down some peanut job in the CS department or computation center to support
their "habit", without ever graduating. But I digress...
>Also, i would like to raise another point. I the previous discussions
>you mentioned only "CS" degree-holders. Here at Michigan, there
>is a "CS" department, which is not part of the College of Engineering
>and a "CE" department which is basically ran by the Electrical Engineering
>department.
In most cases, a "CS" degree, Computer Science, is a software engineering
degree. Most CS departments grew out of Mathematics departments. A "CE"
degree, Computer Engineering, is a specialized outgrowth of Electrical
Engineering. Basically, if you took EE, threw out the analog stuff an
All That Calculus, then beefed up the digitial side of things, adding a
basic computer architecture course and perhaps a bit more on programming.
you'd wind up with CE. When I was in school ('79-'83), CMU didn't even
offer CE or CS degrees per se; you could study CE under EE or CS under
Mathematics (I did both).
>I suppose this is a very biased information and I have *NO* clue whether it
>is true or not(so don't flame me for this too much) but the CE majors don't
>regard CS people very highly. Very snobish, indeed, but hell it is college
>after all, right? ;)
Actually, you'll find that kind of attitude held by the less imaginitive
long after college. There seems to be this kind of rivalry between the
hardware and software folks in many places, sometimes to a rather nasty
level. Of course, this explains why you seem to have hardware fighting
software on many systems out there. As the RISC people re-discovered,
you need to consider the needs of both in any well-designed architecture.
>Anyway, the CEs claim that the stuff they are learning is very important in
>writing serious programs such as OSs and extremly hard to do without a
>degree.
In most schools, "OS Design" or "Software Engineering" are taught in the
CS department. In some sense what they say has a ring of truth to it.
The stuff they teach in those courses is important. What you learn there
will help you avoid the collected mistakes of the past. However, CS
departments don't have a lock on this knowledge, but you're not going to
learn it in the mainstream "programmer's rag" either, they're too full of
"How to write a extended memory TSR with DOS priviliges" or "Hacking the
Wild Windows Event Loop" than anything real CS-ish. BYTE used to cover
this kind of stuff, though I suppose you need some more hard core journals
for that these days (IEEE, ACM).
>They also calim that CS people ususally write less demanding codes, such as
>applications.
Like I said, anything dealing with coding, outside of maybe a course on
embedded programming or some-such, is usually in the CS department. And
there are plenty of applications more complex than OSs. Take, for instance,
99.9% of the programs that run under MS-DOS :-).
--
Dave Haynie / Commodore Technology, High-End Amiga Systems Design (cool stuff)
"The Crew That Never Rests" da...@cbmvax.commodore.com {BIX,Portal}: hazy
"By definition, everything I do is cool" - Sam Malone