Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!cantuar!paul
From: p...@cantuar.UUCP (P. Ashton)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: vi vs emacs in a student environment
Message-ID: <399@cantuar.UUCP>
Date: 27 Jun 88 23:58:33 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, Canterbury Univ., Christchurch, New Zealand
Lines: 19
We are in the middle of deciding which editor to teach students next
year, and are looking at vi and emacs. We have a couple of questions
(i) we have heard emacs is somewhat resource hungry. What experiences do
people have with students using emacs with regard to resource use
(environment GNU emacs on a Vax 11/750 running 4.3BSD, and on sun 3/50s
and 3/60s).
(ii) is vi available for VMS (if so what are the details)?
Please reply by email - I will post a summary.
Paul Ashton.
--
Internet(ish): paul@cantuar.{uucp,nz} JANET/SPEARNET: p.ash...@nz.ac.canty
UUCP: ...!{watmath,munnari,mcvax,...!uunet!vuwcomp}!cantuar!paul
NZ Telecom: Office: +64 3 667 001 x6350
NZ Post: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!steinmetz!davidsen
From: david...@steinmetz.ge.com (William E. Davidsen Jr)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: vi vs emacs in a student environment
Message-ID: <11418@steinmetz.ge.com>
Date: 29 Jun 88 15:22:23 GMT
References: <399@cantuar.UUCP>
Reply-To: david...@crdos1.UUCP (bill davidsen)
Organization: General Electric CRD, Schenectady, NY
Lines: 49
In article <3...@cantuar.UUCP> p...@cantuar.UUCP (P. Ashton) writes:
| We are in the middle of deciding which editor to teach students next
| year, and are looking at vi and emacs. We have a couple of questions
|
| (i) we have heard emacs is somewhat resource hungry. What experiences do
| people have with students using emacs with regard to resource use
| (environment GNU emacs on a Vax 11/750 running 4.3BSD, and on sun 3/50s
| and 3/60s).
emacs is not monolithic, there are a number of flavors and styles.
Certainly GNU emacs takes a great deal of memory, if not CPU. There are
other flavors available, most commonly microemacs. While it doesn't
contain a LISP compiler, most people don't really need that in their
editor, nor mail reading, process control, interactive jokes, or any of
the other stuff in GNU. GNU has many bells and whistles, and the LISP
compiler is adequate for teaching a one semister LISP course, if desired.
Microemacs will run on Ultrix, BSD, SunOS, Xenix, Cray2, MS-DOS,
unix-pc, etc. It provides a full set of editing functions, windows, key
redefinition, and a complete macro programming language for special key
definitions. Size is about 78k on VAX, 120k on PC (with all features
enabled).
There is a MicroGNU emacs (now called mg) which seems to have some of
the features of GNU. I haven't really tried it, but it is on several of
the Suns at this site, due to problems running full GNU on machines with
only 8 MB of memory.
| (ii) is vi available for VMS (if so what are the details)?
As part of UNIX environment for VMS, from INteractive Systems and
Wolongong. I have no addresses for those vendors, but we have their
software on some of our VAXen at remote sites.
| Please reply by email - I will post a summary.
|
| Paul Ashton.
|
| --
| Internet(ish): paul@cantuar.{uucp,nz} JANET/SPEARNET: p.ash...@nz.ac.canty
| UUCP: ...!{watmath,munnari,mcvax,...!uunet!vuwcomp}!cantuar!paul
| NZ Telecom: Office: +64 3 667 001 x6350
| NZ Post: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand
--
bill davidsen (w...@ge-crd.arpa)
{uunet | philabs | seismo}!steinmetz!crdos1!davidsen
"Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!nbires!ncar!noao!arizona!lm
From: l...@arizona.edu (Larry McVoy)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: vi vs emacs in a student environment
Message-ID: <6056@megaron.arizona.edu>
Date: 30 Jun 88 01:22:57 GMT
References: <399@cantuar.UUCP> <11418@steinmetz.ge.com>
Reply-To: l...@megaron.arizona.edu (Larry McVoy)
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson
Lines: 11
In article <11...@steinmetz.ge.com> david...@crdos1.UUCP (bill davidsen) writes:
>In article <3...@cantuar.UUCP> p...@cantuar.UUCP (P. Ashton) writes:
>| We are in the middle of deciding which editor to teach students next
>| year, and are looking at vi and emacs. We have a couple of questions
As a consultant I'll volunteer the following advice: don't get people used to
emacs. Please. Why? Because emacs is available on "some" unix machines.
Vi is available on almost all unix machines. Old habits die hard, so I think
it's better to start people out with something they can stay with...
--
Larry McVoy laidbak...@sun.com 1-800-LAI-UNIX x286
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!husc6!uwvax!umn-d-ub!rhealey
From: rhea...@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU (Rob Healey)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: vi vs emacs in a student environment
Summary: think STUDENTS
Message-ID: <370@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU>
Date: 5 Jul 88 02:29:04 GMT
References: <399@cantuar.UUCP> <11418@steinmetz.ge.com> <6056@megaron.arizona.edu>
<1832@stpstn.UUCP> <449@jonlab.UUCP>
Reply-To: rhea...@ub.d.umn.edu.UUCP (Rob Healey)
Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth
Lines: 26
If you take a close look at the original poster's message it seems
to me that their asking for an editor that STUDENTS can use; not
programmers, not system admins, STUDENTS. I've worked with STUDENTS
in computer labs for 4 years. We use vi exclusively, why?
<ESC>, arrow keys, i, a, x, dd, O, o, :wq
The keystrokes listed above are ALL that 90% of the STUDENTS need.
Most humans with a reasonable IQ can handle the above with 30 minutes
or less practice. I'd hate to have to explain the concept of a meta
key to an incomming freshman. STUDENTS don't need multiple windows
or fancy features, just a fast way of creating text. Except for :wq
and O all the above commands require the student to hit ONE key; no
control, no shift, no meta, no multikey combination. When the students
gain experience they can research new editors if they wish. For the
non majors who have to take CS as a junk credit or to kill off lib eds
the vi commands above serve just fine.
Just thought I'd put things in a slightly different perspective.
-Rob
--
-Rob
Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!osu-cis!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!
topaz.rutgers.edu!ron
From: r...@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ron Natalie)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: vi vs emacs in a student environment
Message-ID: <Jul.5.19.00.16.1988.26508@topaz.rutgers.edu>
Date: 5 Jul 88 23:00:18 GMT
References: <399@cantuar.UUCP> <11418@steinmetz.ge.com> <6056@megaron.arizona.edu>
<1832@stpstn.UUCP> <449@jonlab.UUCP>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 11
Since I graduaged college, I've worked on UNIX at a large Defense Contractor
using UNIX for software quality assurance, a Government Research Laboratory
doing computer science research, and now working in management of a University
wide computer center for the State University. In each environment, the
editor of preference was EMACS. Demonstrating a proficiency in vi shows little
to me as the the candidate's qualifications and lends me to believe that
the applicant is a candy-assed 3B2 luser.
Even died-in-the-wool Doug Gwyn prefers using a real editor to "vi."
-Ron
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!vsi!sullivan
From: sulli...@vsi.UUCP (Michael T Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: vi vs emacs in a student environment
Summary: Gotta know vi
Message-ID: <747@vsi.UUCP>
Date: 7 Jul 88 15:06:45 GMT
References: <399@cantuar.UUCP> <11418@steinmetz.ge.com> <6056@megaron.arizona.edu>
<Jul.5.19.00.16.1988.26508@topaz.rutgers.edu>
Organization: V-Systems, Inc. -- Santa Ana, CA
Lines: 23
In article <Jul.5.19.00.16.1988.26...@topaz.rutgers.edu>, r...@topaz.rutgers.edu
(Ron Natalie) writes:
> wide computer center for the State University. In each environment, the
> editor of preference was EMACS. Demonstrating a proficiency in vi shows little
> to me as the the candidate's qualifications and lends me to believe that
> the applicant is a candy-assed 3B2 luser.
>
> Even died-in-the-wool Doug Gwyn prefers using a real editor to "vi."
The original posting wasn't about what editor people preferred. It was
about what editor should be taught students. To work with Unix you have
to know vi. Whether you end up using Emacs or Sun's editor isn't important.
Emacs may be fine in your development environment, but if you're doing
work for businesses and they have a problem with their system, you better
know vi because they sure aren't going to have Emacs. Not everybody
works in a swell development environment all the time.
But then again, what do I know. I'm just a "candy-assed 3B2 luser (sic)".
Not by choice, though.
--
Michael Sullivan {uunet|attmail}!vsi!sullivan
V-Systems, Inc. Santa Ana, CA sulli...@vsi.com
ons, workstations, workstations, workstations, workstations, workstations, work
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!lll-winken!lll-tis!ames!umd5!mimsy!chris
From: ch...@mimsy.UUCP (Chris Torek)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: vi vs emacs in a student environment
Message-ID: <12371@mimsy.UUCP>
Date: 8 Jul 88 15:39:05 GMT
References: <399@cantuar.UUCP> <11418@steinmetz.ge.com> <6056@megaron.arizona.edu>
<287@laic.UUCP>
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742
Lines: 8
I use both. Daily. I also use ed and ex (less frequently). I can
get by in GNU Emacs (my regular Emacs is `Torek Emacs', largely based
on Unipress Emacs), WordStar, and EDT. So what?
Obviously, every student should learn every editor on every system
around :-) .
--
In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7163)
Domain: ch...@mimsy.umd.edu Path: uunet!mimsy!chris
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!lll-winken!lll-tis!ames!ncar!oddjob!uwvax!rutgers!
topaz.rutgers.edu!ron
From: r...@topaz.rutgers.edu (Ron Natalie)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: vi vs emacs in a student environment
Message-ID: <Jul.8.17.00.31.1988.19561@topaz.rutgers.edu>
Date: 8 Jul 88 21:00:33 GMT
References: <399@cantuar.UUCP> <11418@steinmetz.ge.com> <6056@megaron.arizona.edu>
<Jul.5.19.00.16.1988.26508@topaz.rutgers.edu> <747@vsi.UUCP>
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 28
Hey, I've been a UNIX systems programmer for nearly ten years now.
I've worked on UNIX from Version 6 to System V to nearly every possible
flavor of BSD. I've worked on IBM-PC's and braindamaged Intel not-quite-
finished-yet development systems. I've made quite a nice living on both
my regular job and consulting. I never use vi.
The only editor that I can count on working, without having to worry
if terminfo/termcap is installed properly, has my terminal type in
it, etc... is "ed." Some of these systems don't even have "vi."
The only thing I know how to do in vi is type ":q." (actually, this
is not true anymore, I spend a month last year debugging a UniPress
EMACS vi emulator, so I had to learn a few vi commands in order to
test it).
Teach students "ed," that way they learn what regular expressions
are. My wife and quite a few people around here who were taught
"vi" and EMACS as their first editor have the slightest idea how
to construct regular expressions...of course, nobody around here
knows what the file system looks like now that they have FSCK.
You know what else I don't like? Those overhead bins on airplanes.
It used to be that you had to fit your carry on stuff under the seat
and all you could put above your head is your jacket. Now as soon
as a plane pulls up to the gate, half the plane jumps up and starts
unloading their life's possessions from these stupid bins, dropping
them on people and blocking the aisles. It used to be possible to
get off a plane in a reasonable amount of time, but not anymore...
-Ron
Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!clyde!att!rutgers!cmcl2!nrl-cmf!ames!ubvax!
vsi1!altnet!uunet!nuchat!sugar!ficc!peter
From: pe...@ficc.UUCP (Peter da Silva)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: vi vs emacs in a student enviro
Summary: editor fantasies
Message-ID: <1045@ficc.UUCP>
Date: 8 Jul 88 21:57:37 GMT
References: <370@umn-d-ub.D.UMN.EDU> <47800011@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu>
Organization: SCADA
Lines: 35
There does not exist a decent editor on UNIX, or for that matter any other
system I have ever used.
A full GNU Emacs certainly has the power, but the brain-dead command set
(unless you customise the hell out of it) and the overloading of
non-printable characters is a royal pain... particularly since no two Emacs
implementations match. The way Emacs redraws the screen is a total disgrace,
too.
VI has a decent command set (though it'd be better if the range commands
were prefix instead of postfix, so they could provide feedback), but the
modefulness is mildly irritating (however understandable it might be)
and the relentless line-orientation gives me the screaming meemies. The
macros are brain-dead, too, but the regular expression capabilities almost
makes up for it.
It shouldn't be too difficult to allow for one bit of out-of-band
information. I.E., use the parity bit to indicate "command" and tie
it to an ALT key... if the channel doesn't carry it, then map it into
ESCAPE like Emacs does: but don't have any non-altmode commands.
If possible, hide this in the terminal.
The ^U convention for counts in Emacs is nice, but it'd be cleaner
to cons up counts out of ALT-0 through ALT-9. Search commands should
be (as in VI) actually part of the range-specifier (search with alt-/).
This would cut the number of commands down considerably.
I guess it'd be possible to set up a VI-mode like this in EMACS. Has
anyone done something like this? This, plus scrolling windows, would
completely convert me to Emacs. Right now I put up with VI.
--
-- `-_-' Peter (have you hugged your wolf today) da Silva.
-- U Ferranti International Controls Corporation.
-- Phone: 713-274-5180. CI$: 70216,1076. ICBM: 29 37 N / 95 36 W.
-- UUCP: {uunet,academ!uhnix1,bellcore!tness1}!sugar!ficc!peter.
Path: utzoo!attcan!uunet!vsi!sullivan
From: sulli...@vsi.UUCP (Michael T Sullivan)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: vi vs emacs in a student environment
Summary: Cobwebs
Message-ID: <752@vsi.UUCP>
Date: 11 Jul 88 14:55:56 GMT
References: <399@cantuar.UUCP> <11418@steinmetz.ge.com> <6056@megaron.arizona.edu>
<Jul.8.17.00.31.1988.19561@topaz.rutgers.edu>
Organization: V-Systems, Inc. -- Santa Ana, CA
Lines: 18
In article <Jul.8.17.00.31.1988.19...@topaz.rutgers.edu>, r...@topaz.rutgers.edu
(Ron Natalie) writes:
>
> Teach students "ed," that way they learn what regular expressions
> are. My wife and quite a few people around here who were taught
> "vi" and EMACS as their first editor have the slightest idea how
> to construct regular expressions...of course, nobody around here
> knows what the file system looks like now that they have FSCK.
Yeah, and why are students using video terminals? My wife and quite
a few people I know don't know why delete is 0177 (ascii). If
people would just learn about paper tape there'd be lots more knowledge
around here. Sure, productivity may drop off, but they'd know more.
Now, about those high-level languages some of you use...
--
Michael Sullivan {uunet|attmail}!vsi!sullivan
V-Systems, Inc. Santa Ana, CA sulli...@vsi.com
ons, workstations, workstations, workstations, workstations, workstations, work