daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Hugh C. Lauer) Thu Dec 21 09:51:10 1989 From: lauer@BTC.KODAK.COM (Hugh C. Lauer) To: kerberos@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Cc: lauer@BTC.KODAK.COM Denis Russell's recent message raised some other concerns in my mind about vulnerabilities of authentication, especially in wide area networks of many realms. It seems that weaknesses in administrations are much more serious problems than weaknesses in either the Kerberos or X.509 protocols. Denis's project is addressing a large area -- all of academic computing in the UK. Mine is one or two orders of magnitude smaller -- the computing networks of a multi-national corporation -- and that appears to be already intractable. We have a lot of departments with a lot of users. The largest concentration is in Rochester, New York, but about half the users are located elsewhere. For reasons not worth elaborating here, it is not possible in our company to have an effective central administration, even of authentication servers. Individual departments will install and use them or not, as they choose and as their individual business needs dictate. Yet I and many of my colleagues need to move physically around the corporation, and wherever we go we need to be able to login into a local system with our own passwords and be recognized as who we really are. This is why we are interested in Kerberos in the first place -- because it is a working system for authentication, presumably over a wide area. We also need to be able to put together projects comprising people from a number of departments and give them common sets of rights and access privileges, so that they can work together, share files, etc. They need to be able to sign on to a system anywhere in their project (which may span the continent) and still have substantially the same rights they have in their local environments. My concern is that I am not sure that I can trust the administrations of all of the other realms. Maliciousness is NOT the issue; carelessness is. I.e., I am not completely confident that the administrator or users in the various realms really understand the responsibilities and consequences of protecting passwords, keys, etc. Are there any public passwords in a particular department? Does another department find it necessary to routinely share the Master database password, the same way that we here find it necessary to routinely share root passwords? If I add a user from a particular department to the access list for a project, do I inadvertantly open it up to everyone in that department? to people outside the department but still inside the company? to people outside the company? It seems that this problem grows rapidly with the number of realms and is independent of whether you use centralized databases, such as Kerberos, or certificates in a public key cryptosystem. It is already bad enough in 'monolithic' company with 40-50 separate departments. It has to be much worse for the 40-50 universities in the UK, each with several dozen highly autonomous departments or colleges. Given this, I think that the practical vulnerabilities of X.509 AND Kerberos are much more severe than the protocol vulnerabilities described by Burrows, Abadi, and Needham (the latter, I expect, will eventually get fixed). Am I missing something? /Hugh C. Lauer Kodak Boston Technology Center Bedford, Massachusetts
From: sytek!salzman@HPLABS.HP.COM (Michael M. Salzman) To: kerberos@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Date: Thu, 21 Dec 89 09:20:00 PST From: salzman (Michael M. Salzman) Message-Id: <8912211720.AA18059@sytek.hls.hac.com> To: hplabs!lauer@BTC.KODAK.COM, kerberos@ATHENA.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: Athentication vulnerabilities The issues raised by Hugh Lauer and by others, concerning the vulnerabilities of the authentication protocols and of the key administration regimes, are indeed valid. Early on in the discussion of Kerberos, this issue was obliquely addressed by Jerry Salter, who expressed the view that Kerberos is an authentication not an identification system. All of these schemes do not positively identify a user, and do not insure that passwords are not shared. They merely control access by "users" to controlled services and resources. Identification of users requires additional steps, prior to the issue of a ticket (in Kerberos argot). For example, our company long ago, (and since forgotten), developed a system which required a key, a personal ID Number, and a calculator like device to compute encrypted responses. The keys were stored in an encrypted form (using another algorithm) in both the calculator and the identifying computer. Users would then be presented with a challenge, a seven digit number based on their key, they would enter the number into the calculator, after identifying themselves via the Personal ID Number (to their calculator). The calculator would then issue a response, which could be decrypted by the computer using the known key. If the answer matched the expected answer, the user was identified. This system therefore relies on three elements: A physical device containing a Key, and a personal ID number. The Key is entered by an administrator into the calculator, and is not known to the user. The Personal ID Number is entered by the user, and is not known to the administrator, and should not be written down anywhere (common mistake). The device must therefore be posessed by the user who knows the PIN in order to work. If the device or the PIN are stolen they cannot be used. Such a system would not solve the problems raised by Lauer and others since it relies on a central adminstration scheme. However, a similar scheme can be extended to a hierarchical domain system which would allow remote users to be identified. Of course, such a scheme also raises questions about the meaning of access privileges. If I do not know about the remote users, how can I assign them privileges to use a resource. Do I assign it to them specifically or to a group to which they belong? How do the groups get defined? Mike Salzman Hughes Lan Systems, Inc.
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Bede B. McCall) Thu Dec 21 14:10:24 1989 From: bede@LINUS.MITRE.ORG (Bede B. McCall) To: lauer@BTC.KODAK.COM Cc: kerberos@ATHENA.MIT.EDU In-Reply-To: Hugh C. Lauer's message of Thu, 21 Dec 89 09:45:11 EST <8912211445.AA10770@hotspur> We have a similar, although "smaller" (in terms of raw numbers, at least) problem. In our case, the problem is compounded by very loose coupling -- both administratively and with respect to network connectivity -- between two major sites and a gaggle of smaller sites spread globally (from Germany to Japan). I've targeted only the major sites for kerberos. Presumably, if and when a "global" sort of authentication scheme becomes available on a reasonable basis (perhaps X.509), we would use that for inter-site authentication. So we might eventually end up with a ubiquitous two-level sort of authentication scheme which might at least be easier to use than the one we have now. I have few illusions about a globally acceptable scheme showing up which would allow us to simplify this situation in the foreseeable future (e.g. 5 or 6 years). Our existing answer to inter-site authentication is the use of SecurID (but this is **NOT** a product endorsement!) "smart" cards which, although they fulfill our requirements, nonetheless require an infrastructure similar to that of kerberos -- dedicated, secure servers, centralized administration, and so on. Since the number of people who need the cards is quite small (maybe numbering in the very low hundreds), the cost is not an intolerable burden -- but certainly not cheap. What the security cards don't give us is protection against our own users within the major sites (an obstreperous lot, they), hence the perceived need for kerberos. Considering that the basic system is available now, at zero startup/licensing cost (potential future development costs notwithstanding for now), is at least provably secure in its abstract form (the papers from the DEC group), and that we have an existing framework (due to the dedicated security card authentication servers) for installing it, the choice of kerberos was rather obvious. Secure inter-realm authentication for these major sites is something we can cope with, as have Athena and LCS. This isn't to say that our solution for authentication is a terrific model, although I'll bet it's a typical one. At times, in fact, one is tempted to view it as a kludge which works only by virtue of an extraordinarily patient user community. Despite predictions to the contrary, I still haven't gotten used to using my card, and it, just like my password on many systems, expires every so often, making the situation even worse. It would be very nice if I could cob together a one-shot, bulletproof "login certificate" for each user as they first pass through our personnel office and then forget about them until they pass out the same door, perhaps many years later. I think most organizations might even be willing to pay a smallish (does $10 sound about right?) one-time fee for this, assuming the recurring costs were nil and the certificate was universally accepted. (One of the things you have to remember about recurring license fees is the fact that they always have some "hidden" internal overhead added to them: add these costs up and you can run up a really whacking great bill for something like the superficially inexpensive RSA licensing, which is handled on a per-user basis.) -Bede McCall MITRE Corp. Internet: bede@mitre.org MS A114 UUCP: {decvax,philabs}!linus!bede Burlington Rd. Bedford, MA 01730 (617) 271-2839
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Steve Miller 26-Dec-1989 1246) Tue Dec 26 12:53:00 1989 From: miller@ERLANG.ENET.DEC.COM (Steve Miller 26-Dec-1989 1246) To: "kerberos@athena.mit.edu"@DECWRL.DEC.COM From: LYRE::"MAILER-DAEMON" "Mail Delivery Subsystem" 24-DEC-1989 17:13:34.27 To: spm CC: Subj: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 421 decwrl.dec.com.tcp... Deferred: Host is unreachable ----- Unsent message follows ----- Received: by lyre.nac.dec.com (5.57/Ultrix2.4-C) id AA00681; Thu, 21 Dec 89 16:17:59 EST Date: Thu, 21 Dec 89 16:17:59 EST From: spm (Steven Miller) To: decwrl::kerberos@athena.mit.edu Subject: Re: Authentication vulnerabilities Cc: spm Recent messages from Hugh Lauer and Michael Salzman discussed the administrative vulnerabilities of various authentication systems. In any of these systems, be it Kerberos, X.509, or others, there is a trust in the administrative components (such as the Kerberos realm administrator). All that the protocols can hope to achieve is to explicity identify which set of components are involved in a particular authentication operation. This then gives the principals the opportunity to enforce any policy they choose with respect to those administrative units. For example, not granting write access to certain Kerberos realms based on not trusting the carefulness of that realm's administration. Kerberos V4 provides a limited form of such information, for a 1-hop realm traversal, and V5 will provide the entire path of administrative units (realms) involved in the operation. So an apprehensive principal can setup their authorization to take the administrative trust into account. The task of determining trust in an administrative unit is way beyond the scope of computer communications. There may be applicable precedents in other organizations such as banking or the military to deal with these administrative issues. Steve p.s. Tools such as smart cards with PINs are better, but still imperfect since they may be intentionally shared or shared under duress -- e.g. people have been mugged and forced to obtain money from their cash machines.