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From: "Sergey I. Panov" <sipan@mit.edu>
Message-Id: <199804081822.OAA03540@rwf.lms.mit.edu>
Subject: The KDE Free Qt Foundation (fwd)
To: gnome-list@gnome.org (GNOME)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:22:20 -0400 (EDT)
Content-Type: text
It looks like ice is breaking. It is definitely not what "we" wish
would happend, but a step in the right direction.
Forwarded message:
> From owner-qt-interest@troll.no Wed Apr 8 13:41:58 1998
> Sender: owner-qt-interest@troll.no
> Precedence: list
> X-Loop: qt-interest
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Message-Id: <XFMail.980408133230.wuebben@math.cornell.edu>
> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 13:33:18 -0400 (EDT)
> Organization: Cornell University
> From: Bernd Johannes Wuebben <wuebben@math.cornell.edu>
> To: qt-interest@troll.no
> Subject: The KDE Free Qt Foundation
>
> The KDE Free Qt Foundation
>
>
> The KDE project and Troll Tech AS, the creators of Qt, are pleased
> to announce the founding of the 'KDE Free Qt Foundation'.
>
> The purpose of this foundation is to guarantee the availability of
> Qt for free software development now and in the future.
>
> The foundation will control the rights to the Qt Free Edition and
> ensure that current and future releases of Qt will be available for
> free software development at all times. All changes to the Qt Free
> Edition license will have to be approved by the KDE Free Qt Founda-
> tion which will consist of two members of Troll Tech AS as well as
> two members of the KDE project. One of the representatives of the
> KDE project will have a double vote to be used in case of a tie.
>
> Should Troll Tech ever discontinue the Qt Free Edition for any rea-
> son including, but not limited to, a buy-out of Troll Tech, a merger
> or bankruptcy, the latest version of the Qt Free Edition will be
> released under the BSD license.
>
> Furthermore, should Troll Tech cease continued development of Qt, as
> assessed by a majority of the KDE Free Qt Foundation, and not
> release a new version at least every 12 months, the Foundation has
> the right to release the Qt Free Edition under the BSD License.
>
> At this point lawyers are working on the details of the agree-
> ment. Troll Tech and the KDE project expect to be able to sign the
> necessary documents within a few weeks.
>
> We believe the founding of the KDE Free Qt Foundation to be an
> unprecedented ground-breaking step, ushering in a new era of soft-
> ware development, allowing the KDE project, the free software commu-
> nity, all free software developers as well as commercial software
> developers to prosper in a mutually supportive fashion.
>
>
> Bernd Johannes Wuebben Eirik Eng
> The KDE Project Troll Tech CEO
> wuebben@kde.org Eirik.Eng@troll.no
>
> --
> List archive and information: http://www.troll.no/qt-interest/
>
From atai@ece.ucsd.edu
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From: atai@ece.ucsd.edu (Andy Tai)
Message-Id: <199804081836.LAA09720@vision.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: The KDE Free Qt Foundation (fwd)
To: qt-interest@troll.no
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:36:53 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
In-Reply-To: <199804081822.OAA03540@rwf.lms.mit.edu> from "Sergey I. Panov"
at Apr 8, 98 02:22:20 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
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> >
> > The KDE Free Qt Foundation
> >
> > Should Troll Tech ever discontinue the Qt Free Edition for any rea-
> > son including, but not limited to, a buy-out of Troll Tech, a merger
> > or bankruptcy, the latest version of the Qt Free Edition will be
> > released under the BSD license.
> >
> > Furthermore, should Troll Tech cease continued development of Qt, as
> > assessed by a majority of the KDE Free Qt Foundation, and not
> > release a new version at least every 12 months, the Foundation has
> > the right to release the Qt Free Edition under the BSD License.
Under the BSD license? That will kill KDE since one cannot link BSD code
with GPLed code, and KDE itself is GPLed. They should use LGPL instead. What are
they thinking? Also the BSD license will kill Troll's commerical products
too, since people won't pay if they can use the BSD version in any commerical
products. Troll Tech should reconsider the choice of the BSD license.
--
Li-Cheng Tai (Andy Tai) e-mail: atai@ece.ucsd.edu
Free software: the software by the people, of the people and for the people,
worldwide. Develop! Share! Enhance! And enjoy!
From ralsina@unl.edu.ar
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:43:50 -0300 (GMT-0300)
From: Roberto Alsina <ralsina@unl.edu.ar>
To: Andy Tai <atai@ece.ucsd.edu>
cc: qt-interest@troll.no, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: The KDE Free Qt Foundation (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199804081836.LAA09720@vision.ucsd.edu>
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On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Andy Tai wrote:
> > >
> > > The KDE Free Qt Foundation
> > >
> > > Should Troll Tech ever discontinue the Qt Free Edition for any rea-
> > > son including, but not limited to, a buy-out of Troll Tech, a merger
> > > or bankruptcy, the latest version of the Qt Free Edition will be
> > > released under the BSD license.
> > >
> > > Furthermore, should Troll Tech cease continued development of Qt, as
> > > assessed by a majority of the KDE Free Qt Foundation, and not
> > > release a new version at least every 12 months, the Foundation has
> > > the right to release the Qt Free Edition under the BSD License.
>
> Under the BSD license? That will kill KDE since one cannot link BSD code
> with GPLed code, and KDE itself is GPLed. They should use LGPL instead. What are
> they thinking? Also the BSD license will kill Troll's commerical products
> too, since people won't pay if they can use the BSD version in any commerical
> products. Troll Tech should reconsider the choice of the BSD license.
You can if you use a BSD license without the publicity requirement.
The linux kernel contains BSD licensed code, you know...
("\''/").__..-''"`-. . Roberto Alsina
`9_ 9 ) `-. ( ).`-._.`) ralsina@unl.edu.ar
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._`. " -.-' Centro de Telematica
_..`-'_..-_/ /-'_.' Universidad Nacional del Litoral
(l)-'' ((i).' ((!.' Santa Fe - Argentina
KDE Developer (MFCH)
"I can attempt anything, specialization is for insects" (50% Heinlein).
From mark@crle.uoguelph.ca
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:32:37 -0400
From: Mark Mayo <mark@crle.uoguelph.ca>
To: Andy Tai <atai@ece.ucsd.edu>
Cc: qt-interest@troll.no, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: The KDE Free Qt Foundation (fwd)
References: <199804081822.OAA03540@rwf.lms.mit.edu>
<199804081836.LAA09720@vision.ucsd.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <199804081836.LAA09720@vision.ucsd.edu>; from Andy Tai on
Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 11:36:53AM -0700
X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386
On Wed, Apr 08, 1998 at 11:36:53AM -0700, Andy Tai wrote:
> > >
> > > The KDE Free Qt Foundation
> > >
> > > Should Troll Tech ever discontinue the Qt Free Edition for any rea-
> > > son including, but not limited to, a buy-out of Troll Tech, a merger
> > > or bankruptcy, the latest version of the Qt Free Edition will be
> > > released under the BSD license.
> > >
> > > Furthermore, should Troll Tech cease continued development of Qt, as
> > > assessed by a majority of the KDE Free Qt Foundation, and not
> > > release a new version at least every 12 months, the Foundation has
> > > the right to release the Qt Free Edition under the BSD License.
>
> Under the BSD license? That will kill KDE since one cannot link BSD code
> with GPLed code, and KDE itself is GPLed. They should use LGPL instead. What are
> they thinking? Also the BSD license will kill Troll's commerical products
> too, since people won't pay if they can use the BSD version in any commerical
> products. Troll Tech should reconsider the choice of the BSD license.
How about you go and read the BSD license before making rediculous
statements like this.... While you're at it why don't you read the
above announcement and consider the circumstances where the BSD
license will apply. You're lack of understanding is staggering..
-Mark
> --
> Li-Cheng Tai (Andy Tai) e-mail: atai@ece.ucsd.edu
>
> Free software: the software by the people, of the people and for the people,
> worldwide. Develop! Share! Enhance! And enjoy!
>
> --
> List archive and information: http://www.troll.no/qt-interest/
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Mayo
mark@crle.uoguelph.ca
Computing Research Lab for the Environment
-----------------------------------------------------------------
University degrees are a bit like adultery: you may not want to
get involved with that sort of thing, but you don't want to be
thought incapable. -Sir Peter Imbert
From rosalia@cygnus.com
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:05:36 +0200 (CEST)
From: Mark Galassi <rosalia@cygnus.com>
To: Roberto Alsina <ralsina@unl.edu.ar>
Cc: Mark Galassi <rosalia@cygnus.com>, Andy Tai <atai@ece.ucsd.edu>,
qt-interest@troll.no, gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: The KDE Free Qt Foundation (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.980408182641.26719S-100000@ultra7.unl.edu.ar>
References: <13611.59991.231427.31889@guest1.cygnus.co.uk>
<Pine.LNX.3.91.980408182641.26719S-100000@ultra7.unl.edu.ar>
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>> So I would say "The linux kernel contains X11-style licensed
>> code".
Roberto> Ok with me. I suggest updating it to "Old style X11
Roberto> license" tough ;-)
Oh sh**, you're right! That won't work very well, then: "old-style
X11" and "new style BSD" don't work well.
How about Apache-style?
From ralsina@unl.edu.ar Thu May 11 23:52:04 2000
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From: Roberto Alsina <ralsina@unl.edu.ar>
To: qt-interest@troll.no
cc: gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: The KDE Free Qt Foundation (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <13612.36617.170420.477994@guest1.cygnus.co.uk>
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On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Mark Galassi wrote:
>
> >> So I would say "The linux kernel contains X11-style licensed
> >> code".
>
> Roberto> Ok with me. I suggest updating it to "Old style X11
> Roberto> license" tough ;-)
>
> Oh sh**, you're right! That won't work very well, then: "old-style
> X11" and "new style BSD" don't work well.
>
> How about Apache-style?
I must confess not having read Apache's license. (I use Roxen, which is GPL)
("\''/").__..-''"`-. . Roberto Alsina
`9_ 9 ) `-. ( ).`-._.`) ralsina@unl.edu.ar
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._`. " -.-' Centro de Telematica
_..`-'_..-_/ /-'_.' Universidad Nacional del Litoral
(l)-'' ((i).' ((!.' Santa Fe - Argentina
KDE Developer (MFCH)
"I can attempt anything, specialization is for insects" (50% Heinlein).
From emily@cornholio.new.ox.ac.uk
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 10:37:24 +0100 (BST)
From: Joel Dillon <emily@cornholio.new.ox.ac.uk>
To: "Sergey I. Panov" <sipan@mit.edu>
cc: GNOME <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Subject: Re: The KDE Free Qt Foundation (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <199804081822.OAA03540@rwf.lms.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980409103608.13454A-100000@cornholio.new.ox.ac.uk>
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Shows we (the free Qt /Harmony project) are doing some good. I think
this is in response to a thread on kde-licensing which showed the
trolls we're serious about cloning Qt.
On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Sergey I. Panov wrote:
> It looks like ice is breaking. It is definitely not what "we" wish
> would happend, but a step in the right direction.
>
> Forwarded message:
> > From owner-qt-interest@troll.no Wed Apr 8 13:41:58 1998
> > Sender: owner-qt-interest@troll.no
> > Precedence: list
> > X-Loop: qt-interest
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Message-Id: <XFMail.980408133230.wuebben@math.cornell.edu>
> > Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 13:33:18 -0400 (EDT)
> > Organization: Cornell University
> > From: Bernd Johannes Wuebben <wuebben@math.cornell.edu>
> > To: qt-interest@troll.no
> > Subject: The KDE Free Qt Foundation
> >
> > The KDE Free Qt Foundation
> >
> >
> > The KDE project and Troll Tech AS, the creators of Qt, are pleased
> > to announce the founding of the 'KDE Free Qt Foundation'.
> >
> > The purpose of this foundation is to guarantee the availability of
> > Qt for free software development now and in the future.
> >
> > The foundation will control the rights to the Qt Free Edition and
> > ensure that current and future releases of Qt will be available for
> > free software development at all times. All changes to the Qt Free
> > Edition license will have to be approved by the KDE Free Qt Founda-
> > tion which will consist of two members of Troll Tech AS as well as
> > two members of the KDE project. One of the representatives of the
> > KDE project will have a double vote to be used in case of a tie.
> >
> > Should Troll Tech ever discontinue the Qt Free Edition for any rea-
> > son including, but not limited to, a buy-out of Troll Tech, a merger
> > or bankruptcy, the latest version of the Qt Free Edition will be
> > released under the BSD license.
> >
> > Furthermore, should Troll Tech cease continued development of Qt, as
> > assessed by a majority of the KDE Free Qt Foundation, and not
> > release a new version at least every 12 months, the Foundation has
> > the right to release the Qt Free Edition under the BSD License.
> >
> > At this point lawyers are working on the details of the agree-
> > ment. Troll Tech and the KDE project expect to be able to sign the
> > necessary documents within a few weeks.
> >
> > We believe the founding of the KDE Free Qt Foundation to be an
> > unprecedented ground-breaking step, ushering in a new era of soft-
> > ware development, allowing the KDE project, the free software commu-
> > nity, all free software developers as well as commercial software
> > developers to prosper in a mutually supportive fashion.
> >
> >
> > Bernd Johannes Wuebben Eirik Eng
> > The KDE Project Troll Tech CEO
> > wuebben@kde.org Eirik.Eng@troll.no
> >
> > --
> > List archive and information: http://www.troll.no/qt-interest/
> >
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe: mail gnome-list-request@gnome.org with
> "unsubscribe" as the Subject.
>
From ssk@physics.unimelb.EDU.AU
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:52:00 +1000 (EST)
From: Sirtaj Singh Kang <ssk@physics.unimelb.EDU.AU>
X-Sender: ssk@lift.ph.unimelb.edu.au
To: Joel Dillon <emily@cornholio.new.ox.ac.uk>
cc: GNOME <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Subject: Re: The KDE Free Qt Foundation (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980409103608.13454A-100000@cornholio.new.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980409194814.32431A-100000@lift.ph.unimelb.edu.au>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Joel Dillon wrote:
[snip]
> Shows we (the free Qt /Harmony project) are doing some good. I think
> this is in response to a thread on kde-licensing which showed the
> trolls we're serious about cloning Qt.
This has been in the works for more than 6 months, around the time of KDE
One at Arnsberg. We didn't want to announce it prematurely since there was
a LOT of legal paperwork etc to be done first if we wanted to get it
right.
-Taj.
Sirtaj S. Kang taj@kde.org ssk@physics.unimelb.edu.au
School of Physics Univ of Melbourne The KDE is KNOT a Window Manager.
From nelson@crynwr.com
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From: Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com>
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To: GNOME <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Subject: Re: The KDE Free Qt Foundation (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.980409103608.13454A-100000@cornholio.new.ox.ac.uk>
References: <199804081822.OAA03540@rwf.lms.mit.edu>
<Pine.LNX.3.95.980409103608.13454A-100000@cornholio.new.ox.ac.uk>
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Joel Dillon writes:
> Shows we (the free Qt /Harmony project) are doing some good. I think
> this is in response to a thread on kde-licensing which showed the
> trolls we're serious about cloning Qt.
It costs them nothing, and gains users no freedom, as long as they
stay in business.
--
-russ <nelson@crynwr.com> http://web.crynwr.com/~nelson
Crynwr supports Open Source(tm) Software| PGPok | Freedom is the primary
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315 268 1925 voice | cause of Peace, Love,
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | +1 315 268 9201 FAX | Truth and Justice.
From agulbra@troll.no
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To: Sirtaj Singh Kang <ssk@physics.unimelb.EDU.AU>
Cc: Joel Dillon <emily@cornholio.new.ox.ac.uk>, GNOME <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Subject: Re: The KDE Free Qt Foundation (fwd)
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From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <agulbra@troll.no>
Date: 09 Apr 1998 13:25:44 +0200
In-Reply-To: Sirtaj Singh Kang's message of "Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:52:00 +1000 (EST)"
Message-ID: <m3zphvi6dj.fsf@lupinella.troll.no>
Lines: 18
Sirtaj Singh Kang <ssk@physics.unimelb.EDU.AU>
> On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Joel Dillon wrote:
> [snip]
> > Shows we (the free Qt /Harmony project) are doing some good. I think
> > this is in response to a thread on kde-licensing which showed the
> > trolls we're serious about cloning Qt.
>
> This has been in the works for more than 6 months, around the time of KDE
> One at Arnsberg.
You can put is stronger than "more than 6 months". Haavard promised
some of the Germans that we'd work something out at the linux congress
in Würzburg last year. I don't remember exactly when that was, but
you can find out easily.
--Arnt
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To: Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com>
Cc: GNOME <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Subject: Re: The KDE Free Qt Foundation (fwd)
References: <199804081822.OAA03540@rwf.lms.mit.edu>
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From: Arnt Gulbrandsen <agulbra@troll.no>
Date: 09 Apr 1998 13:27:08 +0200
In-Reply-To: Russell Nelson's message of "9 Apr 1998 11:20:53 -0000"
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Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com>
> It costs them nothing, and gains users no freedom, as long as they
> stay in business.
Exactly.
(Apart from the minor matter of lawers' fees and so on.)
--Arnt
From emily@cornholio.new.ox.ac.uk
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:15:45 +0100 (BST)
From: Joel Dillon <emily@cornholio.new.ox.ac.uk>
To: Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com>
cc: GNOME <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Subject: Re: The KDE Free Qt Foundation (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <19980409112053.10098.qmail@desk.crynwr.com>
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On 9 Apr 1998, Russell Nelson wrote:
> Joel Dillon writes:
> > Shows we (the free Qt /Harmony project) are doing some good. I think
> > this is in response to a thread on kde-licensing which showed the
> > trolls we're serious about cloning Qt.
>
> It costs them nothing, and gains users no freedom, as long as they
> stay in business.
True. The point is that if/when they go out of business, Qt won't
disappear or be bought by a more hostile commercial company. Which
is an improvement, even if a distinctly minor one.
Jo
From miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx
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Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:45:05 -0500
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:45:05 -0500
Message-Id: <199804091745.MAA32184@athena.nuclecu.unam.mx>
From: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
To: mark@crle.uoguelph.ca
CC: atai@ece.ucsd.edu, qt-interest@troll.no, gnome-list@gnome.org
In-reply-to: <19980408223237.63907@asbestos.crle.uoguelph.ca> (message from
Mark Mayo on Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:32:37 -0400)
Subject: Re: The KDE Free Qt Foundation (fwd)
X-Windows: You'd better sit down.
> > Under the BSD license? That will kill KDE since one cannot link BSD
> > code with GPLed code, and KDE itself is GPLed. They should use LGPL
> > instead. What are they thinking? Also the BSD license will kill
> > Troll's commerical products too, since people won't pay if they can
> > use the BSD version in any commerical products. Troll Tech should
> > reconsider the choice of the BSD license.
>
> How about you go and read the BSD license before making rediculous
> statements like this.... While you're at it why don't you read the
> above announcement and consider the circumstances where the BSD
> license will apply. You're lack of understanding is staggering..
Couple of comments:
1. You should be nice.
2. You should not insult other people when you think
you have an idea of what they are commenting.
3. You are being particularly annoying.
4. You are not contributing anything interesting to the
debate, you are just flaming.
Now, to the content: he is correct and you are wrong.
The GPL license is not compatible with the BSD license. This is a
long known issue: the reason is that GPL code can not be linked with
code that is under a more restrictive license (and the BSD license is
considered to be more restrictive as it includes the "credit should be
given" clause).
Miguel.
From jim@jimpick.com
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To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <agulbra@troll.no>
Cc: GNOME <gnome-list@gnome.org>
Subject: Re: The KDE Free Qt Foundation (fwd)
References: <199804081822.OAA03540@rwf.lms.mit.edu>
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Date: 09 Apr 1998 11:10:05 -0700
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Arnt Gulbrandsen <agulbra@troll.no> writes:
> Russell Nelson <nelson@crynwr.com>
> > It costs them nothing, and gains users no freedom, as long as they
> > stay in business.
>
> Exactly.
>
> (Apart from the minor matter of lawers' fees and so on.)
>
> --Arnt
Keep up the good work, guys.
My hope is that someday, some large company (with a "real" line of
business) will buy you guys out, and rerelease Qt under the GPL. Then
we could use it. :-)
Don't laugh - if you keep pulling stunts like Qtscape - you'll be
regarded as excellent buy-out stuff. I hope you've got the "For Sale"
sign out front. :-)
Until then...
Cheers,
- Jim
From mark@crle.uoguelph.ca
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Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:53:20 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <19980409145320.55756@asbestos.crle.uoguelph.ca>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:53:20 -0400
From: Mark Mayo <mark@crle.uoguelph.ca>
To: Miguel de Icaza <miguel@nuclecu.unam.mx>
Cc: mark@crle.uoguelph.ca, atai@ece.ucsd.edu, qt-interest@troll.no,
gnome-list@gnome.org
Subject: Re: The KDE Free Qt Foundation (fwd)
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from Miguel de Icaza on Thu, Apr 09, 1998 at 12:45:05PM -0500
X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386
On Thu, Apr 09, 1998 at 12:45:05PM -0500, Miguel de Icaza wrote:
>
> Now, to the content: he is correct and you are wrong.
That depends on how you read the licenses.
> The GPL license is not compatible with the BSD license. This is a
> long known issue: the reason is that GPL code can not be linked with
> code that is under a more restrictive license (and the BSD license is
> considered to be more restrictive as it includes the "credit should be
> given" clause).
While the BSD license does state that credit should be given, in many,
many other respects the LGPL license is far more restrictive.
"I know you are but what am I?" :-)
Obviously, I prefer the BSD license for free software, and you prefer
the GPL license.. However, it's not really worth starting *another*
flame war over this, so I will politely bow out and not contribute anymore
to my original flame.. All the BSD vs. GPL license wars in the past have
amounted to zero progress, and have been nothing more than a big waste
of time...
-Mark
PS. My statement that the original poster look at the conditions where the
Free Qt would become a BSD licensed product still stands... I think that
the circumstance where Troll can no longer produce versions of
Qt would be well matched with the BSD license since it would allow (essentially)
another "Troll" to emerge.. Just my $.02..
> Miguel.
--
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Mark Mayo
mark@crle.uoguelph.ca
Computing Research Lab for the Environment
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University degrees are a bit like adultery: you may not want to
get involved with that sort of thing, but you don't want to be
thought incapable. -Sir Peter Imbert