From: Andy Tai <a...@tyrell.ucsd.edu>
Subject: RMS should be invited to O'Reilly's "Free Software Summit"
Date: 1998/04/02
Message-ID: <ed7m57d67o.fsf@tyrell.ucsd.edu>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 340382072
Organization: UCSD SOE
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.lang.perl.misc,comp.os.linux.misc
Mr. Tim O'Reilly will host a "Freeware Summit" according to the press
release at
http://www.oreilly.com/oreilly/press/freeware.html
Most major free software personalities will be there, but noteably
absent from the list is Richard Stallman, the most senior statesman of
Free Software. I think the GNU Project is the oldest and the most
influential free software project, and how can it be omitted from this
significant event? By ignoring RMS are we trying to show the message
that we can forget the hard work of RMS and GNU in the past twenty
years, now that Free Software is entering the mainstream?
I think we should write to Mr. O'Reilly (t...@oreilly.com) asking him
to reconsider. While now is time to celebrate about the Netscape
event, the old contributors should be even more respected and
recognized. This is the rightful thing to do for the Free Software
Community.
--
Li-Cheng Tai (Andy Tai) e-mail: a...@ece.ucsd.edu
Free software: the software by the people, of the people and for the
people, worldwide. Develop! Share! Enhance! And enjoy!
http://vision.ucsd.edu/~atai/softwarewar.gif
From: Don Bashford <bashf...@gage.scripps.edu>
Subject: Re: RMS should be invited to O'Reilly's "Free Software Summit"
Date: 1998/04/02
Message-ID: <roogyjn0lq.fsf@gage.scripps.edu>#1/1
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Andy Tai <a...@tyrell.ucsd.edu> writes:
> Mr. Tim O'Reilly will host a "Freeware Summit" according to the press
> release at
>
> http://www.oreilly.com/oreilly/press/freeware.html
>
> Most major free software personalities will be there, but noteably
> absent from the list is Richard Stallman....
>
> I think we should write to Mr. O'Reilly (t...@oreilly.com) asking him
> to reconsider....
Not so fast! It may be that RMS was invited but turned it down.
Do you really know? If you follow the link from the press release to
TO'Rs essay about freeware, you will find RMS and GNU mentioned
prominently. I hardly think TO'R can be accused of failing to
recognize the importance of RMS to freeware.
From: Andy Tai <a...@zizkov.ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: RMS should be invited to O'Reilly's "Free Software Summit"
Date: 1998/04/07
Message-ID: <edzphyf52w.fsf@zizkov.ucsd.edu>#1/1
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Don Bashford <bashf...@gage.scripps.edu> writes:
> Andy Tai <a...@tyrell.ucsd.edu> writes:
>
> > Mr. Tim O'Reilly will host a "Freeware Summit"
>
> > but noteably
> > absent from the list is Richard Stallman....
> >
> > I think we should write to Mr. O'Reilly (t...@oreilly.com) asking him
> > to reconsider....
>
> Not so fast! It may be that RMS was invited but turned it down.
> Do you really know? ...
Mr. Tim O'Reilly said that RMS was not invited. I consider this is
unfair to GNU.
--
Li-Cheng Tai (Andy Tai) e-mail: a...@ece.ucsd.edu
Free software: the software by the people, of the people and for the people,
worldwide. Develop! Share! Enhance! And enjoy!
From: sub...@delete.pobox.com
Subject: Re: RMS should be invited to O'Reilly's "Free Software Summit"
Date: 1998/04/07
Message-ID: <6ger0d$p4u@examiner.concentric.net>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 341930529
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<edzphyf52w.fsf@zizkov.ucsd.edu>
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[Posted and mailed]
In article <edzphyf52w....@zizkov.ucsd.edu>,
Andy Tai <a...@zizkov.ucsd.edu> writes:
> Don Bashford <bashf...@gage.scripps.edu> writes:
>
>> Andy Tai <a...@tyrell.ucsd.edu> writes:
>>
>> > Mr. Tim O'Reilly will host a "Freeware Summit"
>>
>> > but noteably
>> > absent from the list is Richard Stallman....
>> >
>> > I think we should write to Mr. O'Reilly (t...@oreilly.com) asking him
>> > to reconsider....
>>
>> Not so fast! It may be that RMS was invited but turned it down.
>> Do you really know? ...
>
> Mr. Tim O'Reilly said that RMS was not invited. I consider this is
> unfair to GNU.
Hmm. If RMS does not qualify, then maybe Bill Gates is invited
(because IE is a freeware).
From: i...@math.ohio-state.edu (Ilya Zakharevich)
Subject: Re: RMS should be invited to O'Reilly's "Free Software Summit"
Date: 1998/04/08
Message-ID: <6getre$l12$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 341945510
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[A complimentary Cc of this posting was sent to
<sub...@delete.pobox.com>],
who wrote in article <6ger0d$...@examiner.concentric.net>:
> > Mr. Tim O'Reilly said that RMS was not invited. I consider this is
> > unfair to GNU.
>
> Hmm. If RMS does not qualify, then maybe Bill Gates is invited
> (because IE is a freeware).
No it is not. You are mixing "free" and "free".
Hope this helps,
Ilya
From: jb...@synopsys.com (Joe Buck)
Subject: Re: RMS should be invited to O'Reilly's "Free Software Summit"
Date: 1998/04/08
Message-ID: <6gg9st$9o3@hermes.synopsys.com>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 342110840
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<6ger0d$p4u@examiner.concentric.net> <6getre$l12$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu>
Organization: Synopsys Inc., Mountain View, CA 94043-4033
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.lang.perl.misc,comp.os.linux.misc
>> > Mr. Tim O'Reilly said that RMS was not invited. I consider this is
>> > unfair to GNU.
>> Hmm. If RMS does not qualify, then maybe Bill Gates is invited
>> (because IE is a freeware).
i...@math.ohio-state.edu (Ilya Zakharevich) writes:
>No it is not. You are mixing "free" and "free".
You clearly don't get it. The notion of having a free software summit
and not inviting RMS is nonsense. Hence the previous poster's comment
that O'Reilly might be confused as to what free software means.
Some have speculated that O'Reilly would not invite RMS because RMS
believes that the "source code" to published books (the LaTeX, SGML,
Word or Frame files) should be free in the GNU sense as well, thus
harming O'Reilly's business interests (though to be fair to O'Reilly,
they have published several books while allowing the authors to make
the "source" freely available, though most of their books are "proprietary").
Note that I do not agree with RMS's purist position that all software
should be free. But not to invite him undercuts the credibility of
the "summit". And the notion that some have, that RMS is such a
stubborn crank that his presence would prevent anything from being
done, is just wrong -- RMS has collaborated successfully over the
years with lots of people who do both free and commercial software.
You don't have to buy in to his world view to work with him.
--
-- Joe Buck
See my daughter: http://www.byoc.com/homepage/130481/molly.html
Boring semi-official web page:
http://www.synopsys.com/news/pubs/research/people/jbuck.html
From: i...@math.ohio-state.edu (Ilya Zakharevich)
Subject: Re: RMS should be invited to O'Reilly's "Free Software Summit"
Date: 1998/04/08
Message-ID: <6ggin4$oud$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 342161385
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<6getre$l12$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6gg9st$9o3@hermes.synopsys.com>
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[A complimentary Cc of this posting was sent to Joe Buck
<jb...@synopsys.com>],
who wrote in article <6gg9st$...@hermes.synopsys.com>:
> >> Hmm. If RMS does not qualify, then maybe Bill Gates is invited
> >> (because IE is a freeware).
>
> i...@math.ohio-state.edu (Ilya Zakharevich) writes:
> >No it is not. You are mixing "free" and "free".
>
> You clearly don't get it. The notion of having a free software summit
> and not inviting RMS is nonsense. Hence the previous poster's comment
> that O'Reilly might be confused as to what free software means.
You clearly never had any relation to GPLed software. GPL is as far
from "free" as you can get - preserving an impression of being free.
While I applaud most other efforts by RMS, GPL is a clear indication
of what people should not use.
Ilya
P.S. Note that I do not discuss here RMS invitation. *I* would
invite him anyway.
From: Stefaan.Eeck...@ecc.lu (Stefaan A Eeckels)
Subject: Re: RMS should be invited to O'Reilly's "Free Software Summit"
Date: 1998/04/09
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<6ggin4$oud$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu>
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In article <6ggin4$ou...@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu>,
i...@math.ohio-state.edu (Ilya Zakharevich) writes:
> [A complimentary Cc of this posting was sent to Joe Buck
> <jb...@synopsys.com>],
> who wrote in article <6gg9st$...@hermes.synopsys.com>:
>> >> Hmm. If RMS does not qualify, then maybe Bill Gates is invited
>> >> (because IE is a freeware).
>>
>> i...@math.ohio-state.edu (Ilya Zakharevich) writes:
>> >No it is not. You are mixing "free" and "free".
>>
>> You clearly don't get it. The notion of having a free software summit
>> and not inviting RMS is nonsense. Hence the previous poster's comment
>> that O'Reilly might be confused as to what free software means.
>
> You clearly never had any relation to GPLed software. GPL is as far
> from "free" as you can get - preserving an impression of being free.
You mean you're not 'free' to do with it as you please ;-)
That's true - you can't (in all honesty ;-) grab bits and pieces of
GPL'd code and pass them off as your own. You have to apply the GPL
to whatever modifications or enhancements you make to the program.
The source will be available to anyone who cares to ask.
That limits people who make 'derivative works'. It does *not* mean
the software is not 'free' ('libre').
>
> While I applaud most other efforts by RMS, GPL is a clear indication
> of what people should not use.
People writing software they want to share with other people,
and assure that their work will remain accessible, should
use the GPL. Better still, they should assign the copyright to
the FSF. I'm quite sure (I'd bet my last dollar on that) RMS
and the FSF will never pull a TOG on us.
Think about this - would you rather have GPL'd software maintained
and serviced by programmers, or Microsoft bloatware with regular,
expensive, incompatible updates, maintained and serviced by the
cheapest people MS can employ in their 'Customer Service'
department?
Take care,
--
Stefaan
--
PGP key available from PGP key servers (http://www.pgp.net/pgpnet/)
___________________________________________________________________
"Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas
are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats."
-- Howard Aiken
From: i...@math.ohio-state.edu (Ilya Zakharevich)
Subject: Re: RMS should be invited to O'Reilly's "Free Software Summit"
Date: 1998/04/09
Message-ID: <6gjem4$f61$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu>#1/1
X-Deja-AN: 342538718
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<6ggin4$oud$1@mathserv.mps.ohio-state.edu> <6giid7$2j0$1@justus.ecc.lu>
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[A complimentary Cc of this posting was sent to Stefaan A Eeckels
<Stefaan.Eeck...@ecc.lu>],
who wrote in article <6giid7$2j...@justus.ecc.lu>:
> People writing software they want to share with other people,
> and assure that their work will remain accessible, should
> use the GPL.
Wrong. They should use AL or BSD-type license. Fortunately, I know
only one piece of fine software which uses GPL and does not come from
FSF, and it is EMX.
> Better still, they should assign the copyright to
> the FSF. I'm quite sure (I'd bet my last dollar on that) RMS
> and the FSF will never pull a TOG on us.
This is absolutely irrelevant, since putting GPL on your software
makes it useless for a significant fraction of usages, and severy
cripples those usages that are allowed.
> Think about this - would you rather have GPL'd software maintained
> and serviced by programmers, or Microsoft bloatware with regular,
> expensive, incompatible updates, maintained and serviced by the
> cheapest people MS can employ in their 'Customer Service'
> department?
People who resolve to use arguments like this one show they are not up
to the argument. I will prefer AL and BSD-L to both situations.
Ilya
From: jer...@netcom.com (Jeremy Allison)
Subject: Re: RMS should be invited to O'Reilly's "Free Software Summit"
Date: 1998/04/09
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i...@math.ohio-state.edu (Ilya Zakharevich) writes:
>Wrong. They should use AL or BSD-type license. Fortunately, I know
>only one piece of fine software which uses GPL and does not come from
>FSF, and it is EMX.
Hmmmm. Samba (which I help write) is generally considered to be
(sorry for tooting our own horn here :-) 'fine software' (At
least a lot of the Fortune 500 companies who use it say nice
things about it on our survey page :-).
It uses the GPL and has nothing to do with the FSF.
>This is absolutely irrelevant, since putting GPL on your software
>makes it useless for a significant fraction of usages, and severy
>cripples those usages that are allowed.
How does having the GPL on Samba make it useless for your use ?
You can still serve MS clients with it - you can sell it, you
can even add a proprietary GUI front end (people have). The
only thing you can't do is make proprietary changes. How does
this hurt you ?
Jeremy Allison,
Samba Team.
From: t...@mit.edu (Thomas Bushnell, n/BSG)
Subject: Re: RMS should be invited to O'Reilly's "Free Software Summit"
Date: 1998/04/15
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In article <edzphyf52w....@zizkov.ucsd.edu> Andy Tai <a...@zizkov.ucsd.edu> writes:
Mr. Tim O'Reilly said that RMS was not invited. I consider this is
unfair to GNU.
Did he say why? Rather than all of us guessing, perhaps we could ask
why?